Sub-Group Members:  Alain Durand, Alan Greenberg, Antonia Chu, Antonio Medina Gomez, Athina Fragkouli, Avri Doria, Carlos Raul, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, David Maher, Farzaneh Badii, Finn Petersen, Greg Shatan, Izumi Okutani, James Bladel, Jan Scholte, Jeff Neuman, Jonathan Zuck, Jorge Villa, Kavouss Arasteh, Keith Drazek, Konstantinos Komaitis, Leon Sanchez, Malcolm Hutty, Maura Gambassi, Par Brumark, Phil Buckingham, Robin Gross, Seun Ojedeji, Steve DelBianco   (29)

Staff:  Adam Peake, Alice Jensen, Bernard Turcotte, Berry Cobb, Brenda Brewer, Kim Carlson, Laena Rahim

Apologies:  Sebastien Bachollet

**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**


Transcript WP3 Meeting #4_13 July.docx

Transcript WP3 Meeting #4_13 July.pdf


The Adobe Connect recording is available here:

The audio recording is available here:


Status of documents: Diversity paper circulated. SO/AC accountability paper includes changes - no changes to staff accountability paper


SO/AC accountability -

Edits from Jan were incorporated: we have added 1) operational rules and procedures of SO/ACs; 2) new language to proposals being made from subgroup; 3) commitment from SO/ACs to perform review of accountability mechanisms.

Most of the work will be done in WS2 in interest of time but also in consideration of mechanisms that are envisioned as part of WS1 to ensure tasks are carried out. 


- We should understand roles of SO/ACs before evaluating accountability. It would be misleading to have comparable mechanisms. We should be difficult when drawing parallels. 

- Review needed to build beyond that. We need to be careful about expectations we are setting as we build our model.

- Any of the enhanced accountability structures are attempting to give more power and oversight collectively. There is an enhance 360 problem. We need to have a high level statement. 

- We are talking about SO/AC accountability to their own community. We are implicitly giving control to rest.

- We do not have time to deal with this issue - it should be postponed to WS2. We should not push for a specific area. SO/AC accountability is not a priority. 

- Stress Test suggested by NTIA are under discussion (capture - periodic reviews - new Charter might not be approve (caveat) - standard of review for internal capture).

- We have to very specific about what we are leaving for WS2 (checklist). Minimum transparency benchmarks would be desired. 

- There isn't much accountability language in SO/ACs documents.

ACTION ITEM - Add your contribution to SO/AC accountability google doc. WP3 edits are needed by 06:00 UTC – 14 July.


Staff accountability -

Very little volunteers and no changes made to draft that was produced. 


- There are a number of ATRT2 recomendations that we should have started working on immediately - there has been no effort. 

- No time to address this.

- We have been focused on Board accountability and have not dealt with staff accountability. Complaints about executive staff. How is senior staff held accountable? Is there anything we can do about it? 

- Education and audit is critical. The transparency is an issue - it is hard to audit that. Educate members to multistakehodler model is something that we often see as should come out. It takes time to figure out what it is to be  a member in organization like ICANN. ATRT is a place where more work can be done. 

- We could not discharge CEO from his responsibility and go directly to staff. Staff is indirectly responsible. CEO and/or Board are responsible. Accountability remains with CEO.

---> Recommend we schedule programs led by CEO. 

- We are looking at accountability of staff overall

- In discussing ICANN accountability, issue of Board and CEO was discussed. Important to resolve matter. Find ways and means to contribute. 

ACTION ITEM - Provide input to staff accountability document by 06:00 UTC – 14 July.


Diversity -

How would we address diversity in our mechanisms? The document includes a non-exhaustive list of criteria. 


- Competency , experience and regional distribution are the three criteria we should focus on for diversity. All elements are relevant but difficult to implement. It would be inappropriate to eliminate competent people because of gender balance.

---> Suggestion to have different criteria that should be taken into account. Final decision would be left to appointing bodies. 

- Consider this from the root: lack of diversity in overall pool That is where substantial effort need to be made. 

- Competence can be found in all groups. It is rather finding a way of nurturing that competence, including, engaging. We need to make way for their participation. Problem statement is too long for purpose. 

ACTION ITEM: Send edits and comments on diversity document by 06:00 UTC – 14 July in preparation for WP3 call.

ACTION ITEM: Leon to consolidate documents for discussion tomorrow. 

Action Items

ACTION ITEM - Add your contribution to SO/AC accountability google doc. WP3 edits are needed by 06:00 UTC – 14 July.

ACTION ITEM - Provide input to staff accountability document by 06:00 UTC – 14 July.

ACTION ITEM: Send edits and comments on diversity document by 06:00 UTC – 14 July in preparation for WP3 call.

ACTION ITEM: Leon to consolidate documents for discussion tomorrow. 

Chat Transcript

Brenda Brewer: (7/13/2015 08:48) Welcome to the WP3 Meeting #4 on 13 July @ 14:00 UTC!  Please note that chat sessions are being archived and follow the ICANN Expected Standards of Behavior: 

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (08:59) hi all

  Leon Sanchez: (08:59) hello everyone

  Brenda Brewer: (09:00) recordings are started

  Athina Fragkouli (ASO): (09:00) hello all :)

  Seun Ojedeji: (09:01) hello everyone

  Seun Ojedeji: (09:02) Made some edits on diversity doc

  James Bladel: (09:03) Background noise

  Alice Jansen: (09:03) We can hardly hear you Leon :(

  Carlos Raul: (09:03) its fine Leon

  Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (09:04) Hi everyone!

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (09:07) The recent .africa decision is eye opening and relates to this very topic.  I think more may need to go in WS1 as a result of that decision

  CLO: (09:08) we need the *commitment*  to do the reviews   now  but OK  ADIK  for WS2 Jan

  Keith Drazek: (09:08) +1 Cheryl

  James Bladel: (09:08) Agree with CLO.

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (09:08) We need more than just reviews....we need principals of accountability or at least an acknowledgement that all SOs and ACs are bound by the same bylaws as the ICANN Board for Transparency

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (09:09) and Accountability

  arasteh: (09:09) Dear Brenda

  arasteh: (09:09) P-ls read yr mail

  Brenda Brewer: (09:09) ok @ Kavouss

  arasteh: (09:09) I am providing a new telephone no. for call

  Carlos Raul: (09:09) I don;t mind to leave it to WS2, as long as we set some targets in terms of content of the rpecific eviews( consensus process, delegates to other bodies like Board and NomCom, SOI, and geoprapich representations) and  also a time limit to the reviews

  arasteh: (09:11) I am sorry to bother you dear Brenda

  Alan Greenberg: (09:11) Sorry to be late.

  Izumi Okutani (ASO): (09:11) I totally agree with Athina and also agree that this can be discussed in WS2

  arasteh: (09:12) good day to all

  Brenda Brewer: (09:12) calling you now Kavouss.

  arasteh: (09:12)  awaiting to be called on adobe

  Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (09:12) this would good for WS2

  Carlos Raul: (09:13) Avri

  Carlos Raul: (09:13)  your sound is terrible

  Carlos Raul: (09:13) sorry

  arasteh: (09:13) Pls Kindly ,if possible, dial the number I gave in my message

  CLO: (09:15) agree with @avri  on this mayer

  CLO: (09:15) matter

  arasteh: (09:16) I AM HERE

  Athina Fragkouli (ASO): (09:16) agree with Avri

  Brenda Brewer: (09:17) Kavousse, please see reply email from me.

  arasteh: (09:20) TKS

  Greg Shatan: (09:20) If I had access to power and resources, I would be going to Paris....

  James Bladel: (09:21) While I agree with Alan's general point, I don't see how solving it is the responsiblity of this work.  It's like trying to design an election that accounts for non-voters.

  Keith Drazek: (09:21) @ Alan, perhaps we should include a review of equitable distribution of ICANN Travel Support in WS2? ;-)

  Avri Doria: (09:21) My point is that if ACSO member have the authrotiy of ICANN, they must be accountable.

  Alan Greenberg: (09:22) @Keith, james. I wasnot proposing to fix all of these problems But we need to be aware of the issue and work towards some adjustsments because of it.

  Keith Drazek: (09:22) I agree with Avri

  James Bladel: (09:22) Agree with Avri

  Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (09:22) +1 Avri

  Greg Shatan: (09:22) Agree with Avri.

  James Bladel: (09:22) But Alan, how is that not putting a thumb on the opposite scale?

  Alan Greenberg: (09:22) @Avri. Yes, but how?

  Greg Shatan: (09:23) James, are you suggesting weight diversity is an issue?

  Greg Shatan: (09:23) :-)

  Carlos Raul: (09:25) jump me i will test the mic

  Greg Shatan: (09:26) Working Group capture is an interesting issue....

  Avri Doria: (09:29) i thought that the WP2 has not managed to get to the IRP discussion yet.

  Carlos Raul: (09:34) Again, in terms of Staff, I have heard again and agian in the Congressional hearings a letters the requeste of clear separation between policy, compliance and Operational staff activities

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (09:34) @Avri -- true, but the Mission and Core Values are the standard of review for IRP, and that discussion was held this morning, as you know

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (09:35) No, just need time to review

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (09:35) I will provide comments later today

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (09:36) I still want to see a WS1 item in defining the appropriate roles of staff

  Carlos Raul: (09:36) I agree with Allan,. It did not make it into the final report of ATRT2

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (09:37) We also never see the advice given by the staff to the board and how that differs from  advice from the community

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (09:37) +1 Alan

  CLO: (09:37) yup  as I sid before  NOT in the pre Paris time line

  Carlos Raul: (09:37) +1 Alan

  Carlos Raul: (09:38) I also think is much more important the SO/ACs  transparency and accountability

  Keith Drazek: (09:38) I believe the reason we didn't focus so much on ICANN staff accountability is the CCWG elected to focus on Board accountability, with the expectation that Staff accountability would flow from it. We didn't want to interfere with the Board's role overseeing staff.

  Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (09:39) I think that's part of it Keith and I think it's also an unfortunate byproduct of waiting for the IANA contract expiration to engage in real accountability dialog. As we look at replacing an "oversight" role, that shades our priorities.

  James Bladel: (09:40) Agree that Staff Accountability is an issue.  But I don't thin that's the scope of his group.  Howver, the CEO is an ex officio board member, so that Staff position (and by extension his/her reports) is subject to overall accountability.

  Greg Shatan: (09:41) Keith, I agree with that historical overview, but I think we developed a "one-track mind" regarding the Board.  I think that i s an outgrowth of looking at this as a "corporate governance" issue, which I certainly had a hand (or at least a finger) in putting forward as a focus.

  James Bladel: (09:42) Not comfortable with this group (or even the Board) micromanaing Staff.  Manage the CEO, and hold them accountable for their staff.

  Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (09:43) One issue to look at on staff accountability is "who" or "which" stakeholders staff chooses to consult with on policy issues.  NCSG has noticed that staff chooses to consult with non-commercial actors who are not members of the NCSG on issues we are working on.  How to "make" staff include stakeholders in its consultations?  Not only the stakeholders staff decides it wants to hear from?

  Avri Doria: (09:44) Indded breaking that std hierchy in a multistakeholder organization.  chain of command is not a reasonable postion in a multistakeholder community run organization.

  Greg Shatan: (09:45) I don't think we should take a rigidly corporate view of this question.

  Avri Doria: (09:46) education, audit, and transparency are key.  not micromanagement.

  CLO: (09:47) agreed Avri

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (09:47) One of the issues is that the community does not know where to go when staff takes an action and they feel aggreived.  Telling them they can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on an IRP is not a solution

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (09:47) Telling them to file with a powerless ombudsman is also not a solution

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (09:47) So, do all such aggreived parties send their issues to the CEO

  Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (09:48) Jeff may have a point. Building in real access to the chain of command might help

  Alan Greenberg: (09:49) The enforcement is throue the reporting mechanisms. The grievances can often be identified at a local level.

  Farzaneh Badii: (09:49) Jeff, Ombudsman normally shouldn't be powerless. If it is at ICANN,  we need to change that.

  James Bladel: (09:49) @Jeff - I share your frustration, but at what point do we draw the line and say this is a personnel issue?  Not sure anyone would take these jobs if they had a dotted-line report to the "Community".

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (09:49) I dont view it as a personnel decision

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (09:50) I am not talking about hiring, firing, etc...... We need to have a meaningful way to address siuations where the staff act in a non-transparent non-accountable way

  Farzaneh Badii: (09:51) Agreed with Jeff, we need a mechansim to address the staff's decision not the staff themselves.

  Alan Greenberg: (09:52) @Jeff. Correct, althugh I have to admit there are a few staff members who I would like to have the ability to leg go...

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (09:52) @alan - i am not sure it is an individual issue, but a cultural issue

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (09:53) not culture in terms of geographic, but an ICANN staff culture that has developed

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (09:53) and by the way was articulated fairly well in the .africa case

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (09:53) I STRONGLY urge everyone to read the arguments ICANN staff/lawyers made about the accountability measures

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (09:53) Its is eye opening

  Greg Shatan: (09:53) Agree that the .AFRICA decision is required reading.

  Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (09:53) Completely agree, Jeff.

  Seun Ojedeji: (09:55) Okay i have to go now...thanks a lot

  Seun Ojedeji: (09:55) bye

  Alice Jansen: (09:56) Scrolling is enabled

  Avri Doria: (09:58) what document(s) were used as source for the word picture?

  Carlos Raul: (09:58) wordle

  Carlos Raul: (09:58) or something like that

  Carlos Raul: (09:58) old piece

  Avri Doria: (09:59) i do not mean the tool, but the source docs used.

  Carlos Raul: (09:59) you can put any text into it and will provicde pcitures with the words most used

  Leon Sanchez: (09:59) @Avri I don't know. We could ask Sébastien

  Carlos Raul: (09:59) ahhh

  Carlos Raul: (09:59) good question

  Avri Doria: (09:59) is it significant representation of something or just a pretty picture?

  Carlos Raul: (09:59) bored staff

  Avri Doria: (10:00) like did someone do a picture of all the comments?

  Farzaneh Badii: (10:00) I don't agree with that Kavouss.

  Greg Shatan: (10:00) Should produce a "word cloud" with size reflecting frequency.

  Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (10:00) we could add the need for diversity from those who come from "humble" backgrounds.  I'm not sure how to characterize this, but coming from low financial means.  Too often, the other "diverse" characteristics still have one thing in common: they come from money.  But including those who don't come from money in the areas diversity is needed would be a benefit.

  Farzaneh Badii: (10:01) Gender balance can be achieved and it is implementable and sometimes postivie discrimination is required. This has been practiced and is an effective way.

  Avri Doria: (10:02) its the vica versa that worries me.

  Avri Doria: (10:03) we have 7 competent men, and no women in our folders.  do you want to rule out some compentent man for a woman who we dont even have in our folders?

  Izumi Okutani (ASO): (10:04) To understand your point Leon, are you saying we list the elements as a reference but leave it for the decision for each SO/ACs any WGs?

  Avri Doria: (10:04) or leave it for further development in  WS2

  Leon Sanchez: (10:05) @Izumi I suggest we build the list and not get into weighing each or providing priority to any item so that when time comes, the specific body in charge of applying these criteria is the one that holds that responsibility

  Avri Doria: (10:06) if Greg beleives that just having people in the pool is suffient to vercome discrimination, we will have to agree to disagree.

  Alan Greenberg: (10:07) @Avri, I don't think he is saying that. But having a good poor is a very significant aid to achieving balance

  Avri Doria: (10:08) but many do have a silver spoon, a leg up, an advantage. mo too as a native english speaker from weog. we must recognize that.

  Avri Doria: (10:08) ... me too ..

  Carlos Raul: (10:08) +1 greg

  Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (10:08) +1 Greg

  Avri Doria: (10:09) diversity is also a competence issue as diversity brings different competence.

  Izumi Okutani (ASO): (10:09) OK thanks, that's how I understood. I.Ithink your approach makes sense, leave it for the ones responsible to makethe decisdion on what to prioritize it the list is as a reference and not something they must consider all elements listed

  Avri Doria: (10:09) sometimes hard to recognize, but competence none the less.

  Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (10:10) I guess I still feel like that's contextual. We need a case by case examination of diversity requirements

  Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (10:11) +1 Jan!

  Greg Shatan: (10:11) I oppose rigid quotas.

  Carlos Raul: (10:13) alan us touhing a very serious issue in ALAC I can only underline form my experience

  CLO: (10:13) YUP  it is Alan

  Avri Doria: (10:13) consideration should not be compounded with quotas

  Avri Doria: (10:13) confounded

  Carlos Raul: (10:14) well, compounded as well...

  Keith Drazek: (10:14) These are very important and challenging issues, but they necessarily will be addressed in WS2. We just need to ensure that future WS2 reforms will be implemented assuming community consensus.

  Carlos Raul: (10:15) So please lets LIST the issues/objetives,/standards we aim for WS2 at least

  Greg Shatan: (10:15) @Alan, I think this is one call where the Au/Nz component of Asia Pacific is outweighed by others from the region (I think, 3:1).  Though I do take your larger point.

  Alan Greenberg: (10:16) The NomCom has been quite effective recently on having diversity in their appointees. They work VERY hard at it. And sometimes it has great successes. And sometimes not.

  Keith Drazek: (10:16) Agree Carlos, or at least identify the list of problems that need to be addressed.

  Alan Greenberg: (10:17) @Greg Don't understand. I said that based on activity in senior ICANN circles, AU/NZ seemed to dominate.

  CLO: (10:17) SIGH

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (10:18) I would ask for Midnight anywhere in the world

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (10:18) as opposed to UTC

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (10:19) fine midnight pacific US time

  CLO: (10:19) 23.59 UTC

  Greg Shatan: (10:19) Ah, I see, Alan

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (10:20) ok...that gives californians 8 less hours

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (10:21) +1 greg

  CLO: (10:21) and for those of us already  a day ahead ?

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (10:21) CLO it gives everyone more time

  Greg Shatan: (10:22) It's a single constant.

  Greg Shatan: (10:22) It's not inconvenience.  It's lack of input.

  CLO: (10:23) 060  works

  CLO: (10:23) 0600

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (10:23) Thanks.!

  Avri Doria: (10:23) we have a 12 hr rule?  who said?  another of Greg's rulz?

  Izumi Okutani (ASO): (10:24) 0600UTC?

  Alan Greenberg: (10:24) It was a WP1 rules that has seeped into WP3

  Greg Shatan: (10:24) Not my rule.  It's been a general rule. More one of Jordan's Rulz.

  Avri Doria: (10:24) ah.

  Greg Shatan: (10:24) Apologies for being a permeable membrane.

  Avri Doria: (10:24) ick

  CLO: (10:24) bye for now then...

  Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (10:24) Thx all!

  Avri Doria: (10:24) bye yáll

  Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (10:24) thanks

  Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (10:24) thanks - bye all

  Greg Shatan: (10:24) Would you prefer semipermeable?

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (10:24) bye all

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