Attendees

Members:  Alan Greenberg, Alice Munyua, Athina Fragkouli, Becky Burr, Cheryl Langdon Orr, Eberhard Lisse, Izumi Okutani, Jordan Carter, Jorge Villa, Julia Wolman,Leon Sanchez, Mathieu Weill, Olga Calavalli, Par Brumark, Robin Gross, Roelof Meijer, Sebastien Bachollet, Steve DelBianco, Thomas Rickert, Tijani Ben Jemaa (20)

Participants: Andrew Harris, Avri Doria, Damien Coudeville, David McAuley, Finn Petersen, Greg Shatan, Jonathan Zuck, Keith Drazek, Konstantinos Komaitis, Phil Buckingham, Sabine Meyer, Yasuichi Kitamura (12)

Legal Counsel: Edward McNicholas, Holly Gregory, Josh Hofheimer, Michael Clark, Rosemary Fei, Stephanie Petit, Tyler Hilton (7)

Staff: Alice Jansen, Berry Cobb,Hillary Jett, Kim Carlson

Apologies:  Giovanni Seppia, Martin Boyle

**Please let Kim know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**


Transcript

Transcript CCWG ACCT #37 16 June 2015.pdf

Transcript CCWG ACCT #37 16 June 2015.doc

Recording

The Adobe Connect recording is available here:  https://icann.adobeconnect.com/p9lnvfo9jiy/

The audio recording is available here:  http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-ccwg-acct-16jun15-en.mp3

Proposed Agenda

1. Welcome, Roll Call & SOI 

2. Agenda for the CCWG working session Friday 19 June (Buenos Aires)

3. Feedback on the legal advice for governments

4. AoB

Notes

NOTES & ACTION ITEMS:

These high-level notes are designed to help you navigate through content of the call and do not substitute in any way the transcript.

 

Thomas Rickert, Greg Shatan are on phone only.

Reminder to update your SoI per Charter requirements.

 

Agenda for CCWG working session - 19 June

Goals for this meeting:

1. Agree on assessment of comments and drafting responses

2. Define key message for community engagement

3 Refine working methods in anticipation of public comment period #2

Reading list will include WPs' documents. 

Freeze deadline is today - 23:59 UTC.

WPs are currently summarizing comments. It will be key substance for the 19 June meeting. We will identify items which require further discussion. We would like to try holding a debate on enforceability, cooperative model vs. membership model. Call for volunteers: supporter for cooperative approach (internal Bylaws) and vice versa. Objective is to obtain better understanding of perspectives. 

This meeting will also be opportunity to start reflection on response to NTIA letter

We will prepare for set of meetings we have scheduled and agree on messaging. 

- Request to change layout of debate and title - set of tools and options can be considered. Sebastien volunteers for agenda item #4

ACTION ITEM Clarify title of agenda item #4 

- Presentation of perspectives - we should not be polarizing the debate

ACTION ITEM: Staff/CoChairs to finalize 19 June agenda

Deadline for documents is 23:59 UTC

---

Feedback on the legal advice 

Is it mandatory to file the statement with the State Department for forming UA: answer no, recommend as evidence, we do file, but not mandatory.

Filing fees are $25 dollars

Question - Obligation UA reports, or assemblies, administrative issues, structures they need to fulfill.

UAs have no obligation of informing anyone about their activities unless they are active. 

Question with regards to taxation: other duties that may be required by law to be fulffilled - answer: no obligation to file any tax declaration unless UA had economical activities – subject to filing tax declarations as needed.

No intention of looking into multiple jurisdictions 

Any UA would be an envelope carrying the message to enforce powers. 

Consequences need to be considered. 

Can we have a membership organization where SO/ACs are indicated to be members in Bylaws without having them be a legal entity? Would it be an illegal construct? 

--> It is not possible. As a threshold, members must be a legal person 

- What enforceability means and how it would be used in practice.

- Suggestion to stop discussion and to discuss all 3 options in BA once we have big picture. 

- ACTION ITEM: Read legal counsel's memos in preparation for Buenos Aires

- We need to look at requirements - how requirements are different according to models and prioritize based on that. Think deeply about underlying requirements as that will be key for the debate. 

- Idea that building something to handle worst behaviors. We need to assume that people are not doing what they need to do.

- How can we ensure the person is following SO/AC instructions?

 

AOB

- We have reached out to all SO/ACs - we have responded to all requests and have not turned down any requests. It is still possible to accommodate requests.

- Worry about the number of lawyers that we have participating in calls and the money that is being spent. 1 from each firm is enough. 

ACTION ITEM: Cochairs to sit down with firms in BA to clarify process going forward to manage costs.

Action Items

ACTION ITEM Clarify title of agenda item #4 

ACTION ITEM: Staff/CoChairs to finalize 19 June agenda

ACTION ITEM: Read legal counsel's memos in preparation for Buenos Aires

ACTION ITEM: Cochairs to sit down with firms in BA to clarify process going forward to manage costs

Chat transcript

Kimberly Carlson: (6/15/2015 17:13) Welcome to CCWG Accountability Meeting #37 on 16 June!  Please note that chat sessions are being archived and follow the ICANN Expected Standards of Behavior: http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/expected-standards 

  Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (6/16/2015 05:52) Hi all!

  Kimberly Carlson: (05:54) Hello to Everyone

  Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (05:54) Hello good morning every one

  Leon Sanchez (Co-Chair, ALAC): (05:55) Hello everyone!

  Tijani BEN JEMAA: (05:55) Hi Olga

  Tijani BEN JEMAA: (05:56) how is BA ?

  Michael Clark (Sidley): (05:56) Morning all

  Tijani BEN JEMAA: (05:56) I'm coming tomorrow

  Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (05:56) Hi Buenos Aires is very cold right now

  Sabine Meyer (GAC - Germany): (05:57) how cold is very cold?

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (05:57) Hi all

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (05:58) Salut tout le monde

  Athina Fragkouli (ASO): (05:58) hello all

  Holly Gregory (Sidley): (05:58) Greetings all!

  Rosemary Fei: (05:58) Good morning, all

  Josh Hofheimer (Sidley): (05:58) Greetings all

  Avri Doria: (05:59) Sabine, google weather says 9c

  Sabine Meyer (GAC - Germany): (05:59) thanks Avri!

  Sabine Meyer (GAC - Germany): (05:59) not that cold IMO. over here it's 16C at the moment.

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (05:59) it was 4C in Wellington this morning, but it will be a long time before we have another ICANN meeting here

  Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (06:00) of course our windowless conference rooms will be temperature controlled....

  Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (06:00) loved NZ, Jordan

  Sabine Meyer (GAC - Germany): (06:00) so you don't expect to ever get outside, Jonathan?

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:00) Wellington was great fun. Auckland could host from 2018. ;-)

  Tijani BEN JEMAA: (06:01) Jordan speaking French???

  Tijani BEN JEMAA: (06:01) wonderful

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:01) Excuse his french

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:01) typing french

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:01) it's my second favourite language

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:01) la langue de ma coeur?;)

  Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (06:02) Hi, about weather, today it is 8 C but it may get colder

  Avri Doria: (06:02) Are there people refusing to file one.  seems rather late for it to remian undone.

  Tijani BEN JEMAA: (06:02) La langue de mon coeur

  Becky Burr: (06:03) apologies, not on audio yet

  Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (06:04) my Adobe audio is quite ok

  Sabine Meyer (GAC - Germany): (06:05) like 8 8? or coffee at 8?

  Sabine Meyer (GAC - Germany): (06:06) then I'll have to give my apologies for being late. I'll only land at 7:05 AM.

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:07) Tijani, I have always been hopeless at genders

  Sabine Meyer (GAC - Germany): (06:07) that's what they said :)

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:09) will a downloadable document pack be available?

  Leon Sanchez (Co-Chair, ALAC): (06:09) It would be ideal if those with most concerns on each model could step forward and volunteer for the excercise. Also those who have showed more support to each model

  Leon Sanchez (Co-Chair, ALAC): (06:09) And the CCWG welcomes it's  new dog member to the call :-)

  David McAuley (RySG): (06:09) That bark was a volunteer

  Sabine Meyer (GAC - Germany): (06:09) he can team up with the rooster!

  Leon Sanchez (Co-Chair, ALAC): (06:09) LOL

  David McAuley (RySG): (06:10) Agenda seems fine

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (06:10) Sorry to be late

  David McAuley (RySG): (06:12) I would imagine a debate on enforceability might lead to ideas for compromise

  Rosemary Fei: (06:13) Agenda has a couple of numbers repeated

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:13) @can't exclude success

  Josh Hofheimer (Sidley): (06:13) Could staff please post a link to the agenda, thanks

  David McAuley (RySG): (06:13) +1 @Jordan

  Holly Gregory (Sidley) 2: (06:14) By cooperative model I take it is meant voluntary compliance model which is essentially the status quo, 

  Avri Doria: (06:14) A lot more than the status quo when considering the other accountabilty improvements.

  Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (06:15) calling it "voluntary" compliance seems to be a bit loaded of a term.

  Holly Gregory (Sidley) 2: (06:15) But status quo in terms of no enforceable rights and relying on good will

  Holly Gregory (Sidley) 2: (06:15) Robin, not loaded but pointing out that it relies on everyone agreeing to behave

  Avri Doria: (06:15) Holly, i think you miisunderstand how it all works now.  Just becasue we do not go to court to enforce does not mean we have no means of enforcing.

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:16) Josh, legal - I've posted to you (emailed) the agenda drat

  Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (06:16) those early legal memos said we could have enforcable rights under a designator model.

  Holly Gregory (Sidley) 2: (06:17) yes.  Ithanks for the clarification.  I take it then that the cooperative model is the designator model?

  Rosemary Fei: (06:17) @Robin, yes, some, if you have a legal person

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:17) isn't "cooperative" model the "trust" model?

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:18) "cooperative" is the "internal bylaws" model

  Josh Hofheimer (Sidley): (06:18) @Leon,

  Holly Gregory (Sidley) 2: (06:18) that is the point I was making Jordan

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:18) deisgnator is in between

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:19) or "informal designators with no legal persons"

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:19) right Jordan

  Greg Shatan: (06:20) Cooperative model is the one without any legal persons with the ability to enforce powers  in court.

  Josh Hofheimer (Sidley): (06:20) @Leon, we also will be sharing  some updated responses to the GAC questions and to the chart comparing the three models -- Member model, Designator model, and the model formerly known as...!

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:20) call it Prince

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:20) @Josh : are the Qs clear ?

  Avri Doria: (06:21) no need to be prejudicial about a model that has largely worked and gotten us this far.

  Josh Hofheimer (Sidley): (06:21) @Leon we hope to send those updates by 19:00 UTC

  Greg Shatan: (06:21) Since one can't have members without legal persons, the "cooperative/voluntary/trust model" forecloses the member model.

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:21) Prince isn't prejudicial. And it isn't the model that got us this far. That plus NTIA contract got us this far.

  Avri Doria: (06:22) there is this fantasy that ICANN has only behaved becasue of Father NTIA looking over our shoulders.  This is a beleif that cannot not be proven.  We bahaved becase that is mostly what we do.  We have agreed to cooperate and that need bolstering and fixes to some mechaamsism but it does not need to replaced.

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:23) I don't think the community agrees with your assessment, Avri - otherwise the CWG proposal would look very different, and the comments that came in to our PC1 would too. But -- that's just my interpretation of what I am seeing

  Rosemary Fei: (06:23) @Leon, we have received Malcolm Hutty's questions.

  Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (06:24) Avri, I agree that the NTIA oversight has not had any measurable impact on ICANN/Board behaviour.

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:24) In any case, I think that the member model is a bolstering/fix

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:24) @Avri : but everyone agrees we need to NAME the models without any prejudice. Naming matters

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:24) and that it would be better, even if the NTIA contract somehow remained.

  Holly Gregory (Sidley) 2: (06:24) Cooperation is wonderful until someone doesn't cooperate

  David McAuley (RySG): (06:24) well put Holly

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:24) In any case, it's unprovable what impact it had or didn't have

  Avri Doria: (06:24) I think we a remore spplit hat you think.  And the CWG was countil onf improve redress like RR and IRP and the Reviews put in the bylaws.

  Sébastien (ALAC): (06:24) Members, Designators, Trust

  Holly Gregory (Sidley) 2: (06:24) Voluntary, cooperative and trust are all loaded terms

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:25) Naming matters - Mathieu sums up ICANN's purpose in two words? :-)

  Avri Doria: (06:25) But cooperaton according to bylaws we agree to is what we are doing now.

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:25) No, that was Afnic's.   ;-)

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:25) Avri: in a context which is changing

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:26) and the impact of that change is disputed

  Avri Doria: (06:26) yes RR and IRP and other mechansism need strengthening.

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:26) +1

  Avri Doria: (06:26) Not changing as much as some seem to argue.

  Rosemary Fei: (06:27) Member UAs can sue, can also contract

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:27) that's the point of dispute

  Avri Doria: (06:27) true

  Josh Hofheimer (Sidley): (06:27) @Roelof, no under California law, Members must be legal persons

  Thomas Rickert, CCWG Co-Chair: (06:27) @Roelof, no, they can exercise more membership rights.

  Holly Gregory (Sidley) 2: (06:27) No.  Members MUST be legal persons.  Not just an issue of standing and enforcedability

  Greg Shatan: (06:27) I am glad we have become so much more content with the actions and inactions of Board and management just in time to hang out with them in BA.

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:27) members *must* be legal persons.

  Thomas Rickert, CCWG Co-Chair: (06:27) Let's not reduce the discusssion to taking ICANN to court

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:28) Members reallocates "fundamental" power in the community

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:28) other models leave it with the Board

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:28) the court cases stuff is a massive red herring

  Rosemary Fei: (06:28) +1, Jordan

  Josh Hofheimer (Sidley): (06:28) +1 Thomas, it's also an issue of the powers that can be reserved to the community, over and above the fiduciary duties of the ICANN Board, among other things

  Avri Doria: (06:28) Greg, we are not completely happy, but as a aggregate, i would say that few things have moved us to unhappyness.

  Avri Doria: (06:29) and most of those are fixed by RR, IRP and Director removal.

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:29) Are we back into the "do we or do we not trust the Board" mode? If so, I could go to bed

  Leon Sanchez (Co-Chair, ALAC): (06:30) we have a baby member too :P apologies for that

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:30) Is the CCWG relying on child work ?

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:30) I don't think it is consistent with the Charter

  Leon Sanchez (Co-Chair, ALAC): (06:30) we are trying to be inclusive with the next generation :-)

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:30) it feels like it at times. It reminds me of homework at school, for sure

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:31) You get an A Jordan !

  Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (06:32) And everything that has gone before has been in the shadow of the USG

  Avri Doria: (06:32) Jordan, no we are still at the question of do we distrust the system we have so much that we need to revamp it.  I think there are things that need fixing.  I do not think we need to rebuild ICANN.

  David McAuley (RySG): (06:32) Agree with Greg

  Avri Doria: (06:33) We are still in the same debate becase we have never completed this debate and cme to consensus.

  Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (06:33) @weather http://servicios.lanacion.com.ar/pronostico-del-tiempo/capital-federal/capital-federal

  Becky Burr 2: (06:33) we have not finished this debate because people keep talking in slogans.

  David McAuley (RySG): (06:34) Thank you @Olga, very helpful

  Avri Doria: (06:34) Becky that can be said for the side in this discussion.

  Avri Doria: (06:34) ... for all the sides ...

  Becky Burr 2: (06:34) i agree Avri, but we should all stop

  Holly Gregory (Sidley) 2: (06:35) iDo we want the community powers to be actual or advisory.  That seems to be the issue.  Currently the community powers in an informal unenforceable designator system is   advisory.  not actual from a legal perspective .  Agree with Jordan.

  Roelof Meijer (SIDN, ccNSO): (06:35) @Jordan: I don't know if you are referring to my intervention, but if you are: that whas not an attempt to start or restart a discussion but a question for clarification

  Holly Gregory (Sidley) 2: (06:35) forgive typos and grammar please.

  Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (06:36) Agree Jordan. We've needed to have this discussion regardless of NTIA

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (06:36) we always do @holly

  Avri Doria: (06:36) Roelof, they migh be refering to my insistence that this topic is not closed.

  Steve DelBianco  [GNSO - CSG]: (06:36) Jordan said "distribute the powers".  I think Membership also broadens the board's fiduciary duty, so that it has duties to both the Corporation and the Members

  Holly Gregory (Sidley) 2: (06:37) Agree Steve

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:37) some factual binaries? Advisory or Actual - it's actual

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:38) it's back to our methodology - we need to focus on the requirements we set

  Avri Doria: (06:38) I guess I am still looking for the smallest possible set of necessary chanages.  and am not convinced that mmebership quelifies as a minimal necessary.

  Greg Shatan: (06:38) I don't think anyone is trying to summarily stop the discussion, or declare it closed.

  Becky Burr 2: (06:38) I don't think I agree Steve DB. 

  Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (06:39) Another interesting component to this is the long time distinction between the relationship the "contracted parties" enjoys with ICANN (people call it a trade association) and that enjoyed by the rest of the community which has no formal relationship with the organization.

  Alan Greenberg: (06:39) JOrdan, *OR*, now knowing the implications of those requirements, change them!

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (06:39) I personally agree with you @avri

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:39) Alan: that too!

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:39) in fact, that particularly. Because then it becomes "the smallest set of changes that delivers the requirements"

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:40) in teh end that's sort of an easier analysis or discussion to have

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:40) if we separate the two

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:40) "what do we need, and what will achieve it"

  Greg Shatan: (06:40) Becky -- you don't agree that in a mamber nonprofit, the Board owes a fiduciary duty to both the corporation and the members?

  Roelof Meijer (SIDN, ccNSO): (06:40) @Jordan: that's a great requirement

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:41) Roelof, I thought that that was the methodology that we had agreed and been following, which was how we got to the model we proposed in PC1

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:41) but I could just be confused

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (06:42) good point @alan

  Rosemary Fei: (06:42) Directors of a nonprofit public benefit corporation in CA owe fiduciary duties to the corporation., not the members.

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:42) Isn't the stress testing job to test that stuff, Alan?

  Avri Doria: (06:42) i.e we should not do worst case analysis

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:42) [at least in part]

  Avri Doria: (06:43) i assume we need to do both, best and worst case analysis.

  Rosemary Fei: (06:43) Job of lawyers is always to anticipate the worst case

  Holly Gregory (Sidley) 2: (06:43) We lawyers always expect the worst

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:43) but there are elements of this that are nothing about behaviour per se

  Avri Doria: (06:43) right, but the job of those of tryin to buold something is to see all analyses.

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:44) e.g. my support for the "constitutional" reassignment of authority to the community is because of a principled support for power being distributed not concentrated

  Avri Doria: (06:44) speaking of needig to apologize for typos.

  Roelof Meijer (SIDN, ccNSO): (06:44) @Rosemary @Holly: you lawyers must be a cheerful bunch ; )

  Avri Doria: (06:44) we cannot design only for worst case scenarios

  Holly Gregory (Sidley) 2: (06:44) I think its why folks would kill all the lawyers

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:45) mind you, I guess there is an underlying assumption there of the wisdom of crowds / the benefits of distribution / the ethos of multistakeholderism

  Avri Doria: (06:45) we have to build with an assumption of reasonable sik, but not maximal risk.

  Becky Burr 2: (06:45) @Greg,  I think that "figuciary duty" concepts are broader than we describe in our shorthand.  there is a public benefit trust and serving that is part of th e Board's fiduciary obligation - members have responsibilty to serve that as well, and members have authority to enforce that.  the board is answerable to  members in a way that it is not currently answerable, but i guess i don't think there are NEW fundamental  obligations with respect to the purpose of the entity

  Avri Doria: (06:45) ... reasonable risk ..

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:45) there are no representatives on the uA

  Roelof Meijer (SIDN, ccNSO): (06:45) @Avri: that's something we Dutch know a lot about. Indeed, you cannot, as the price is far to high. So our most crucial dikes have a height to cope with the highest flood that would statiscally occur once in 100 years..

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (06:46) and setting with knowledge what as a Community we will accept as that "reasonable risk" is yes@avri

  Steve DelBianco  [GNSO - CSG]: (06:46) Alan -- the AC/SO chair would announce that their Membre rep did not follow instructed vote, and we can stipulate that would invalidate the vote.   Then the AC/SO replaces the rep and we vote again

  Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (06:46) Roelof. I agree no system will be perfect but you're still planning for a flood.

  Roelof Meijer (SIDN, ccNSO): (06:46) So we accept that a very, very unlikely disaster can happen

  Greg Shatan: (06:47) The fiduciary duty to members is a new obligation.  I think it's fundamental.

  Alan Greenberg: (06:47) @Jordan, if "representative" is the wrong word, mea culpa. The people who are to act on behalf of the UA. Or whatever the proper words are.

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:47) Aren't we trying to design a system where disasters are less likely?

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:47) Alan: our proposal doesn't have people "representing" the UAs :(

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:47) it just has the SOs/ACs acting, with the UAs as a non-decision-making envelope

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:47) at least that's how I understood it

  Roelof Meijer (SIDN, ccNSO): (06:48) @Jonathan: yeah, individually. We can (almost) all swim...

  Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (06:48) I think for some, enforceability of 4 of the 6 desired powers is sufficient. 

  Alan Greenberg: (06:48) @Steve - and if the person refuses to step down?

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:48) the "person step down" issue only arises with individual people being appointed by SOs/ACs, doesn't it?

  David McAuley (RySG): (06:49) Is the agenda for Friday still as suggested – will there be a debate on enforceability?

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:49) it doesn't arise with the UA model, which was one of the reasons it was preferred?

  Greg Shatan: (06:49) The UAs are a delivery mechanism for the decisions made in the SO/ACs.  If the decision is clearly stated, how can the UA fail to execute?

  Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (06:49) Robin, that's a false dichotomy. Legal persons are required in either model and that creates standing to go to court. 

  Leon Sanchez (Co-Chair, ALAC): (06:50) +1 @Jonathan

  Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (06:50) I don't have a problem with legal personhood.

  Greg Shatan: (06:50) Formal designators get us 4 enforceable powers.

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:50) Robin: it seems many people do

  Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (06:51) yes, but some, that isn't the concern with respect to the membership model

  Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (06:51) but for some, that is.

  Greg Shatan: (06:51) Informal designators get us 4 powers, but without any formal ability to ensure they are heeded.

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:51) i thought that the main issue was the legal person thing

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (06:51) safe travels all

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:51) baesd on what I've read in the comments anyhow

  Sabine Meyer (GAC - Germany): (06:51) so did I, Jordan.

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (06:51) see many of you soon

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:51) some with concerns about the legal persons stuff prefer membersto designators if we get that far

  Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (06:51) not for me, Jordan, but I know it is for others.  there are several issues / concerns to unpack

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:52) looking forward to seeing many of you!

  Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (06:52) I am somewhat concerned about the discussion beging cut short

  Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (06:52) as usual

  Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (06:52) Looking forward for welcoming you all!!

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:52) in Argentina!

  Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (06:52) Thx! See you in BA!

  Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (06:52) safe travels!

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:52) second time!

  Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (06:52) pack a sweater/jumper

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLD member): (06:52) ciao!

  Athina Fragkouli (ASO): (06:52) bye all

  Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (06:52) I set my alarm for 5am for a one hour call?

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (06:52) bye for now

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:52) See you very soon !

  Izumi Okutani (ASO): (06:52) bye all thanks

  Holly Gregory (Sidley) 2: (06:52) See you soon!

  Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (06:52) why is this call so short when we have so much to discuss?

  Michael Clark (Sidley): (06:52) bye all

  Leon Sanchez (Co-Chair, ALAC): (06:52) bye all, safe travels

  Kimberly Carlson: (06:52) Thank you  All, safe travels

  Greg Shatan: (06:53) Bye all.

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