Zoom chat: 2021-12-08 At-Large Consolidated Policy Working Group (CPWG)

15:34:48 From Yeşim Saglam - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Welcome to the At-Large Consolidated Policy Working Group (CPWG) Call taking place on Wednesday, 08 December 2021 at 13:00 UTC.
15:34:58 From Yeşim Saglam - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Agenda: https://community.icann.org/x/WIbOCg
15:58:03 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
@Olivier: I was not attending the TÅR-PDP call yesterday. Hopefully Daniel or Lutz (my proxy) can do the update from this meeting
16:00:29 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Thanks, Steinar - and welcome everyone
16:03:18 From Heidi Ullrich - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Welcome, All.
16:04:34 From Lianna Galstyan to Everyone:
Hi everyone
16:05:55 From Yeşim Saglam - ICANN Org to Everyone:
RTT Link: https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN
16:06:41 From Alan Greenberg to Everyone:
She is both!
16:08:36 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
It’s a party!
16:08:48 From Chokri Ben Romdhane to Everyone:
Hi all
16:09:27 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Draft Responses re: ALAC Advice to ICANN Board on EPDP Phase 2, see Google Doc (comment-only): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wgbaQJjw6c6dQ6FPgNrsJ4pgEnBCdoWncY6BNnJ4ktI/edit?usp=sharing
16:09:42 From Dave Kissoondoyal to Everyone:
Hello everyone .. sorry for being late
16:11:56 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
That NIS2 thing is even more of a mess than GDPR.
16:12:59 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Exactly
16:13:16 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Sure - noted
16:14:18 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
A Dutch member of the European Parliament tried add to the cluefactor on the DNS issue. This was a good thing.
16:16:37 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
What will be the “success criteria” for the new round?
16:16:51 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
NIC + 1 registration? :)
16:17:00 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
Greetings. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University , Chennai, INDIA.
16:17:40 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Many of the zones are still NIC-only though a lot of them are brand gTLDs and will probably be deleted eventually.
16:19:04 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
shocking
16:19:42 From Betty Fausta to Everyone: 
16:20:06 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
The registrars and registries may have more experience with this kind of thing than many of ALAC. No surprise in their response.
16:20:29 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
John, they also have a different set of incentives…
16:20:45 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ Yep. Money and their business.
16:20:53 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Yep
16:21:13 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org to Everyone:
We can remove the tab from the agenda
16:21:18 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
Nothing to report
16:22:45 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ if you think that the gTLD registrars stuff is complex, I've just gone over the 22K or so ccTLD registrars/tag holders and mapped them to gTLD registrars and hosters. The 60 day locks make a lot of sense for registrars.
16:28:23 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
@Siva, that is the domain of the Tamil script Generation Panel I think.
16:29:55 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
Script
16:30:20 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
To be more precise, rather than language
16:30:27 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Is there governmental organization for various languages that could be considered expert on those languages and scripts?
16:31:24 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
The language community aspect is a bit undefined.
16:31:44 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
Again, it's script more than language @John
16:32:31 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone:
@JmcC the closest one that I can think of is UNESCO
16:32:41 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Justine It is another complex problem.
16:33:44 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Roberto Wouldn't let them near anything. :) Seriously though, I think that there is an Irish language authority and there is some French language authority that may have expertise on the scripts and languages. (accents on characters etc.)
16:34:55 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone:
@JmC of course local authority are competent - I thought you meant whether there was a “global” coordination of the local expertise
16:35:50 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone:
the problem, the way I see it, is not to solve the issue “locally” for one language, but how to have common approaches
16:36:01 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
In my humble opinion, it is peace at large if we categorize our efforts in IDNs as those with a purpose of addressing the "Internet Language Barrier". - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
16:36:10 From Marita Moll to Everyone:
I can see why the french language community wants é to be a variant of e. Makes total sense.
16:36:18 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Roberto It is always better to get local expertise especially when it is official.
16:36:22 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
Latin script GP
16:37:39 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone:
@JmC - sure - but those are two separate problems - how to get a good job done locally and how to compound the local solutions - that may be based on different assumptions - to something global
16:38:51 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone:
and the issue is whether SeB and SéB will say the same thing :-)
16:39:05 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Roberto Definitely a Tower of Babel problem. The unpredictable part of this is the ccTLD community reaction.
16:40:12 From Marita Moll to Everyone:
That is the basic issue @Siva
16:40:36 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
@Siva but you are talking about second level domains now
16:42:25 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
A very old observation that results in several quips and anecdotes in the Human Language is that in German, some additional characters map onto two normal characters. I am not sure if we need to see any more than "Character in a Language" is a "Concept in Unicode". In that sense, we are attempting more than a script. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
16:43:36 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
We are still going to discuss second level domain names
16:43:42 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Top levels can be controlled whereas users determine what's registered in the second.
16:43:43 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
Good point, @Hadia, I was still thinking about the Top Level labels
16:44:12 From Marita Moll to Everyone:
Wow, different rules for top and second levels with this issue. That's guaranteed user confusion
16:44:52 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Pretty much. And the ROs will change the policies once they see that their gTLDs are not a success in terms of registrations.
16:44:54 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
'may' and 'maybe' are not good enough
16:46:42 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
An IDN reservation policy in a gTLD might make a gTLD commercially unviable.
16:47:34 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org to Everyone:
RDA Scoping Team Gap Analysis - See: Google Doc (comment-only): https://docs.google.com/document/d/19FOLih8u3Scy1rzgTBEi8uMD0PqXbvcjovVmNeLI52Q/edit?usp=sharing
16:48:26 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
The idiocy of GDPR means that accuracy can't be checked because the WHOIS data is redacted due to GDRP.
16:48:51 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@Evin Please share the new link to the document updated last night that Alan was talking about earlier.
16:51:23 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone:
@John - isn't accuracy first checked and then redacted afterwards?
16:52:24 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Olivier Yep but data can change. The problem with any surveys is that they can't access raw data and generally don't revalidate.
16:52:31 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone:
re address verification, it's interesting that if you type an address in Google, it will quickly show errors
16:52:42 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
Several good friends of mine in India do know very well ways and means of managing the sensitivities of a plethora of Human Languages in India. The debates continue. I have no intention of have more debates per se on "Human Language". It is necessary to note that some Spanish strings map to a single character. for sorting. Spanish has brilliantly incorporated 'hyphen" as a don't care character. So, "Internet Language Barrier" is what we need to really address. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
16:54:25 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
The main pushback from registrars might have been that verification would add a cost to each registration.
16:54:53 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
By far, Concepts are what human beings are strong at sharing and working with. Good to look at UNICODE as a base. Character is a concept. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
16:55:53 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
+1 JZ
16:56:10 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
@John, in answer to an earlier question, part of the RZ-LGR Procedure is that it tries to capture linguistic diversity using something called the EGIDS Value which spans multi-level considerations such as international, national, provincial, wider communication, developing. Each GP is structured to have linguistic experts in addition to community reps, DNS/IDN/Unicode experts and registry/registrar.
16:56:10 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@John whatever additional process recommended, if it is expensive, then ICANN could develop common or model software / interfaces that the Registry and Registrar could cosmetically integrate into their Registry software environment
16:56:34 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Such as a verification stack
16:57:08 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Siva The continually increasing cost of registrations will have a switching effect on gTLDs.
16:57:44 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@John please explain
16:57:47 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
@John, to ccTLDs?
16:58:09 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Alan A lot of registrations are repeating renewals. (same dom being renewed year after year).
16:58:45 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Siva Yes. It is already happening with gTLDs struggling against the ccTLDs in their own markets.
17:00:07 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
@John, do we believe that’s a function of price? The prices are SO low
17:00:14 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Olivier People have been taught to ignore phishing e-mails and that has had an unintended side-effect there.
17:00:51 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ Not so much price as local identity.
17:01:22 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ More business is local than global and it is hard to get more local than the local ccTLD.
17:02:09 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
I’ve received many of these
17:02:31 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@John any changes expected of the Registry/Rr but considered essential and good, needs to be sensitive to the cost burdens and also on the implications on revenue and provide cushions, to the extent possible
17:02:46 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@John That could be a guiding principle in effecting changes/
17:02:56 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ The new .IE regs volume is at least twice that of .COM in the Irish market. The price of .IE is about three times that of .COM. The .UK is cheaper than .COM and it still has more new regs per month in the UK than the COM.
17:03:14 From Lianna Galstyan to Everyone:
Sorry everyone, I need to drop due to other call at IGF. Thank you.
17:03:42 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
@John, so the movement to ccTLDs can’t definitively be explained by price.
17:03:50 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Siva There's commercial good and public good. Being cynical, sometimes they overlap but registrars are in a very competitive business and will push back against the imposition of more costs.
17:04:27 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Should we be doing more to leverage IANA to influence ccTLD practices?
17:04:46 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ Not 100%. The local ccTLD is *our* TLD in the way that .COM or .NET is not. That's what I've seen with how people identify with their ccTLD.
17:05:14 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ The response from ccTLD registries would be even less diplomatic than the worst of mine. :)
17:05:29 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
So @John, the question remains whether a small increase in the average price of .COM domains would lead to a switching effect
17:05:42 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@John to the extent that is fair, the cushions have to be provided, I do understand about the overlapping aspects -- in those cases, it would be more of a correction, about which these considerations are not necessary
17:07:02 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ I think that it is a boiling frog problem. The cost of COM has increased over the past few years but the increase has been uniform. The validation costs would vary from country to country and that's what makes the whole thing so dangerous.
17:08:00 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ .COM is already dropped to the second choice TLD in most countries where there is a strong cCTLD.
17:08:09 From Alfredo Calderon to Everyone:
Apologies for being late. Was on another call.
17:08:42 From Jeffrey Neuman to Everyone:
To be fair, many of the “errors” were syntactical errors as opposed to substantive errors
17:08:53 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
@John, why would the validation cots vary so much?
17:09:39 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ For small registrars with a focus on ccTLDs, they may do. It is going to hit a lot of the developing countries hardest.
17:10:12 From Abdulkarim Oloyede to Everyone:
ICANN should be the one measuring accuracy
17:10:22 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
Thought of typing into the chat rather than speaking. Chat is easy to search on the ICANN Wiki later even for me. The economy based on Internet is pretty poor. Local Language is promising additional services to attract customers both for DTP and the URL. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
17:12:26 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Any accuracy survey has to be properly designed rather than relying on a manual approach.
17:13:37 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Steinar They'd claim commercial sensitivity of the data.
17:16:34 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Whois needs to be revisited with a view to be integrated in a desirable and fair form in new frameworks
17:16:44 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
GDPR and a non-uniform adoption by registrars has made a complete mess of verification from a non registry/non registrar point of view.
17:20:45 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
.EU is not really a ccTLD but it redacts some personal data in the WHOIS. It also has a thin Port 43 WHOIS.
17:21:40 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Some EU ccTLDs publish data in WHOIS but a few have gone completely dark.
17:21:48 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
I lost alan
17:21:55 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
back again
17:23:00 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Alan would a historical estimate of renewing doms be useful for this process? It would help quantify which are new regs (the main focus of data quality) and which are renewing ones.
17:23:49 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Alan The process as it stands seems to be trying to check everything.
17:31:52 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
In a related issue to PII, one Chinese registry has been denying access to its zone file on CZDS claiming that the data may be used for PII purposes.
17:32:03 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
alan has his hand up
17:32:31 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
5 days from now
17:37:19 From Alan Greenberg to Everyone:
The complaints office and ombudsman were suggested
17:38:38 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
Oliver so let's put a comment
17:39:19 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
Let's put out what we think
17:41:26 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
Thank you. I do note that Ombudsman is being proposed. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
17:42:36 From Herb Waye Ombuds to Everyone:
Take care everyone. Stay safe and be kind.
17:42:37 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Thanks and later all.
17:42:37 From Dave Kissoondoyal to Everyone:
Ok thanks and bye to all
17:42:39 From alberto soto to Everyone:
Thanks, bye bye!!
17:43:31 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
bye all
17:44:00 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
Thank you all.