13:56:06 From Alejandro Pisanty to Everyone:
Hi, Alejandro Pisanty here. Cheers all.
13:56:58 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN org to Everyone:
Hello all, welcome
13:58:56 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Evening/afternoon/morning all
14:01:06 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
Hello all
14:02:14 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
Greetings. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University , Chennai, INDIA.
14:03:05 From Heidi Ullrich to Everyone:
Welcome, All.
14:03:15 From Devan Reed - ICANN Org to Everyone (in Waiting Room):
Closed captions are available in the Zoom CC option. However a running transcript is available at the following link: https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN
14:03:22 From Devan Reed - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Closed captions are available in the Zoom CC option. However a running transcript is available at the following link: https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN
14:04:58 From Dave Kissoondoyal to Everyone:
Hello everyone
14:06:02 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN org to Everyone:
Well noted, thanks Hadia
14:06:35 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Excellent Hadia. Thank you!
14:07:21 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone:
Great to see you Jonathan. Hope your emergency has been dealt with.
14:07:32 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
You are welcome
14:09:10 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN org to Everyone:
See At-Large Workspace: Initial Report from the EPDP on Specific Curative Rights Protections for IGOs: https://community.icann.org/x/KAGHCg
14:13:28 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
Uniform dispute resolution policy
14:13:42 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
yes!
14:14:01 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN org to Everyone:
For info: https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/help/dndr/udrp-en
14:17:16 From CAPTIONER Kara Valor to Devan Reed - ICANN Org(Direct Message):
CUTTIN GIN AND OUT
14:17:32 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
I thought it was just my audio
14:21:50 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Are there published lists for a, b and c
14:21:52 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
?
14:23:27 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
And, does a, b and c indicate degrees of importance, or stature? i.e a is more accredited than b and b is 'big'ger than c etc?
14:23:55 From Yrjo Lansipuro to Everyone:
Yes. But the EPDP didn’t want to use lists, but rather to have a definition for (a). There is a UN list for (b)
14:24:52 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
I imagine that if someone is asserting their right to invoke such process, the onus on them will be to establish that they fit in one of the categories
14:25:09 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
The list of reserved names, inc. IGOs: https://www.icann.org/sites/default/files/packages/reserved-names/ReservedNames.xml
14:25:19 From Yrjo Lansipuro to Everyone:
No degrees of importance are indicated. Actually, they overlap to some extent.
14:25:24 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Thank you Yrjo. In any case, could you share with us the links to the published b list and also a if available? How does ICANN propose to have its own definition? Has a definition been arrived at yet, for a?
14:29:27 From Dave Kissoondoyal to Everyone:
yes
14:29:27 From Chokri Ben Romdhane to Everyone:
Hi all sorry for being late
14:29:33 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Thanks Steiner. Is this what ICANN follows?
14:31:39 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone:
Justine --- you are breaking up again
14:32:07 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Not much the speaker can do abput this when it is flacky Internet
14:32:07 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
@Siva: Yes - all Registry Operator MUST block all of labels listed.
14:32:24 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
In the deabate on acronyms, is the question restricted to the 100 or so acronyms listed in the page, or does it extend to acronyms, not only for Red cross, but also for Red c
14:32:35 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Cross Malta, Red Cross Malaysia etc?
14:32:45 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
So frustrating FOR the speaker (as I *well know*)
14:33:07 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone:
Can we dial out to you Justine?
14:34:53 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@Steiner, there may not be a problem reserving long names (ulikely to be in conflict with any local business, except speculative registrations for profit) such as theturkmenredcrescentsociety
14:34:58 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
or a name such as thetanzaniaredcrossnationalsociety
14:38:02 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
One of the metrics in Domaining measure the number of TLDs in which a domain name is registered. That means that some domain names will almost inevitably be registered unless they are on a blocklist or reserved in a Sunrise phase.
14:40:02 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
@Siva: I am not familiar with the process of adding labels to the ICANN defined reserved list, but I believe it has been updated. The reserved list was (if I recall correct) implemented for the new gTLDs, hence it can be labels registered by the legacy TLDs.
14:41:02 From Yrjo Lansipuro to Everyone:
@Siva: here, for example, is the 2021 list of entities having standing invitation to the GA https://undocs.org/en/A/INF/76/3 . Please not the there are other types of entities on the list - like non-member states - but the resolution refers only to IGO:s on the list
14:41:13 From Roberto to Everyone:
I wonder how we can qualify the “undecided” set - that obviously includes the folks who have not responded to the poll. Is it °I don’t understand”, “I don’t care” or other. Maybe that’s a basic question we need to answer.
14:41:17 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@Steiner I wasn't suggesting in any way that new labels need to be added, No.
14:41:20 From Yrjo Lansipuro to Everyone:
Please note…
14:44:06 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@Steiner Just a thought. If existing and new a b c IGOs, if they require their full name such as AfricanDevelopmentBank reserved, it may not be too unfair to reserve the full names reserved, but
14:44:40 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
... acronyms, any more than that is on the link https://www.icann.org/sites/default/files/packages/reserved-names/ReservedNames.xml#IGOs may make it complicated.
14:45:08 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
If a new IGO takes a name that abbreviates to apple or google, what do we do?
14:46:05 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
Any specific insights for .edu domains ? Opinion: It is well known that they are "highly vulnerable" and readily take the research route rather than seek a judicial remedy. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University
14:46:05 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Thanks
14:47:57 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Siva It might be a prior rights issue and the IGO would be told in the strongest terms that they had no case?
14:49:37 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Yes, but wouldn't prior rights also suffer in the case of categorical IGO immunity? (not that the present discussions progress towards such absoulte immunity...
14:50:58 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Siva IGOs should not be able to abuse the process in this manner.
14:51:01 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
Who decide whether to use UDRP or URS?
14:51:03 From Michael Palage to Everyone:
Justine you did a very good job describing
14:51:05 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
it disappeared
14:51:21 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
One reason why there is a debate on IGO immunity, which is a special form of immunity is that IGOs are organization that work in wider, gobal public interest, so their rights need to take precedene.
14:51:27 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
It was there but not anymore
14:51:40 From Roberto to Everyone:
@Siva - this is fairly unlikely for well-known companies like the example you mention - and I believe that in that case we also have some pretty strong IP case - but you have a point in case the acronym is already used by a small company or whoever else that does not have wide diffusion. I keep thinking - mutatis mutandis - at some fancy IP decisions in the past like the well-known “bodacious-tata” considered violating Tata’s IP.
14:53:37 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Well, consumer confusion is important, no?
14:53:50 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
What we require is an ICANN process resepectign the importance of reserving rights for significant and top level IGOs, but at the same time taking into consideration the complications arising out of the int
14:54:09 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Endusers can often be a lot smarter than ICANN or At Large expect.
14:54:13 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
+1 JZ
14:54:54 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
+1 Alan
14:54:56 From alberto soto to Everyone:
31 present only 20 votes
14:55:00 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
@John, they CAN be but given the success of phishing attacks, I would say it's not the norm for them to be smarter than we expect
14:55:25 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ The clue factor varies? :)
14:55:29 From Roberto to Everyone:
+! JMcC - but we can’t forget about the users that are not “smart enough”
14:55:58 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
the facts that there are mutliple names of mutiple organizastions and new IGO names may conflict with existing rights, and also that there are IGOs that act widely in global public interest, an some may act in limited space. Wuld it be possible to think of ICANN's own list?
14:56:08 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Just a thought. Might be far more legally compicated.
14:56:32 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Roberto Yep but it is unlikely that all cases can be covered.
14:56:51 From Roberto to Everyone:
@Alberto - shall we assume that the 11 non-voting are undecided?
14:57:14 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
(limited space) such as city name igo name (a branch name with full legal rights as an IGO..
14:57:16 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
Why are we discussing whether we should be discussing...
14:57:39 From Roberto to Everyone:
Of course, @John, agree
14:59:06 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
A rather unpopular option would be for the IGO to just buy the problem domain name.
14:59:15 From Alan Greenberg to Everyone:
I'm afraid that I need to leave now.
15:00:16 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
This was a 20 minute discussion?
15:00:33 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
Is not the Registry jurisdiction of relevance?
15:00:35 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
(Aren't these complex legal questions, not easily answered in a poll?)
15:00:46 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
+1 Siva
15:01:12 From Roberto to Everyone:
+1 @Siva
15:01:45 From DANIEL K. NANGHAKA to Everyone:
this may call for international law
15:02:12 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
(for fun) It is questions in WG quetionairre like this that lead to all the seats in ICANN being taken by qualified Lawyers :)
15:02:23 From DANIEL K. NANGHAKA to Everyone:
There is also cross border legislation in the arbitration
15:02:26 From Roberto to Everyone:
But the straw poll is just a straw poll, not necessarily related to the final position of ALAC
15:02:26 From Yrjo Lansipuro to Everyone:
@Holly 35 minutes were granted, but of course we have run over even that…
15:02:49 From Yrjo Lansipuro to Everyone:
@Roberto exactly
15:03:02 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
I have my hand up
15:03:04 From DANIEL K. NANGHAKA to Everyone:
most of the times it's based on where the company is located.
15:04:42 From Roberto to Everyone:
@Siva - this is a chicken and egg issue - maybe we are discussing these issues for too long because the lawyers have already taken over the process
15:04:55 From DANIEL K. NANGHAKA to Everyone:
Where does the theory of mutual understanding in arbitration apply
15:06:28 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@Roberto Eventually, the nuances come into play, but when we are discussing policy, there need not be too much emphais on legal nuances. As Option 2 of Q3 implies, most of these nuances are handled or addressed during implementation, or during the arbitration process. The Arbitral trubuanal to deccide (option 2).. Why a
15:06:55 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Not only in this case of IGO arbitration, but in most policy matters.
15:07:39 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@Roberto Some how legal nuances dominate all policy discussions, and the important broader points are missed in all the attention to legal and other nuances
15:07:52 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Audio?
15:07:56 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
And now we have lost another speaker
15:07:58 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
Now we’ve lost OCL
15:08:09 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Polls are important and help to showcase understanding or lack thereof of the topic at hand
15:08:17 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
so you are back Olivier
15:08:56 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
We could discuss the movie script, not try and figure out the intricate details of the movie set
15:11:15 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
Could we please move on
15:11:39 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
We need to hear about DNS abuse
15:11:47 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
I could not agree LESS. this is about allowing the governments access to a commercial marketplace
15:16:58 From Roberto to Everyone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Poisoned_Arrow
15:17:13 From Yrjo Lansipuro to Everyone:
I am sorry that we took so much time to to talk about details, that in themselves are perhaps not important from end user point of view. However, to find compromises on details was the prerequisite for finally setting up a mechanism to solve problems that, if unsolved, may cause confusion, and worse, to end users.
15:17:17 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
About 23 to 26% of the gTLD domain name market is reseller/hosting. It is a complex market.
15:18:17 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
Are there takeouts from the meeting?
15:19:09 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Indeed @OCL agree a step forward
15:19:11 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Deactivating the domain name at the registry or registrar level is very much the nuclear option but the getting to who controls the domain name/website is often not as simple as registrar-registrant.
15:19:24 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
So there was value in the discussion…
15:19:37 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
You're absolutely right, @JM.
15:20:55 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
Thanks for the conversation
15:21:04 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
The Epik databreach may also influence the deliberations.
15:21:51 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
ooof, yes, @JM
15:22:44 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
Good point Steinar
15:23:56 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Most of the attacks on WordPress that I see in the surveys are link injection for SEO promotion rather than malware.
15:25:37 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
The other aspect is that some WP sites have been continuously compromised (link injection) for a year or more.
15:27:41 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ the registrations are not necessarily malicious in themselves.
15:28:45 From Devan Reed - ICANN Org to CAPTIONER Kara Valor(Direct Message):
Hi Kara, I understand you probably have to go in a few minutes. Thank you for captioning today! The call will probably run over 15-20 minutes
15:28:50 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
I AGREE @JM but that makes absolutely NO difference to the end user
15:29:10 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ true but it matters to the registrant.
15:29:29 From Roberto to Everyone:
Agree with @JZ - first stop the spreading of the damage, then figure out who’s fault it is
15:29:52 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ There needs to be a differentiation between a compromised site and a malicious registration.
15:30:31 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
@JM sure, ultimately but does there need to be a differentiation during initial mitigation?
15:30:40 From CAPTIONER Kara Valor to Devan Reed - ICANN Org(Direct Message):
HOW LONG?
15:30:55 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
Have to leave now - I”ll check the rest of the meeting later
15:31:02 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ If it is malware, it needs to be dealt with immediately.
15:31:32 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Exactly, @JM. That's literally all I'm saying
15:31:34 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Thanks Olivier. Such a solution by your hosting company could be expanded to a space usable by the DNS abuse mechanism or by any user, accessible on the Internet with warnings and some automatic cleanup.
15:31:50 From Devan Reed - ICANN Org to CAPTIONER Kara Valor(Direct Message):
Probably about 20 minutes, we understand it’s over, if you need to go
15:32:32 From CAPTIONER Kara Valor to Devan Reed - ICANN Org(Direct Message):
OK TY
15:32:55 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone:
@Siva the problem is that it's millions of Web sites being compromised daily in the world and this would mean both a significant amount of disk space and generate a lot of traffic
15:32:56 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Siva A global response of this type could take control out of the hands of the registrars and they won't want that.
15:33:05 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
a combination, in abstract terms, of a quarantine, a parking space, a restricted archive and a sandbox, a technical corner of the dns.
15:33:40 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
A holding page would be far more acceptable.
15:33:45 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Thanks @Hadia very useful
15:33:49 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@John not necessarily. The domain name and the hosted web remains that of the same Registrar, the titles don't get affected.
15:34:28 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
Same slide deck from last week except for the last 2 slides, no?
15:34:28 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
After the temporary time period, when the source of malice is determined and after the issues are fixed, if true, then the site and the domain moves back to the Registrar.
15:34:41 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Siva The registrars don't like being told what to do. One has to convince them that it is in their best interest of themselves and their customers. It is basic diplomacy. :)
15:35:22 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
In fact the domain still remains in the Registrar's space, the URL still goes to the Registrar or to his nameserver, from where it gets redirected to the DNS sandbox, for a while.
15:35:41 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Thanks Hadia!
15:35:49 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
That Epik breach shows the danger of an anonymized registrant e-mail address system.
15:36:12 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
It is in their best interests. Takes the legal liablilities out of their hands, makes them be seen as clean registrars, helps build up their image that is good for their business.
15:36:22 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
We will write down clever arguments to charm them.
15:36:30 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Siva :)
15:36:33 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
you are most welcome
15:36:46 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Although, they also did a lot of scraping too, right? Good support for NCSG on WHOIS, unfortunately.
15:37:33 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ seems to be a lot of WHOIS scraping. All those e-mail addresses have ended up on the Have I Been Pwned site.
15:37:56 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Sigh
15:38:03 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ from some comments on Twitter, it seems that it had been monitoring sales sites.
15:38:18 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@John, This will also reduce the Registrar's cost of addressing abuse complaints, cost of their attention to their problem, till such time as the website is in the sandbox.. We will get ICANN to buy a sandbox
15:38:50 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
till such time = while
15:39:02 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Siva The risk is that this could spin out of control from being a DNS Abuse solution into being a Content Abuse problem.
15:39:21 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
The “sandbox” is not workable. Not all abuse is connected to websites
15:39:23 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Content abuse *is* DNS abuse
15:39:52 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Siva It is not. There are clear lines and the registries and registrars will push back on this.
15:40:12 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@Steiner agree. But many abuse, especially related to malware are connected to websites.
15:40:35 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
Indeed a long way to go
15:40:53 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@John there is a line, it is a thin, indiscerible line
15:41:26 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Siva Everyone has their own idea about where the line lies. That's the problem.
15:41:52 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@John That is the argument, we will need to a lot more forceful.
15:42:04 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
(and also be nice to the Registries and Registrars)
15:44:15 From Heidi Ullrich to Everyone:
Tomorrow’s OFB-WG call will have a presentation on the FY23 IANA/PTI’s Op Plan and Budget : https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/2021-09-23+Operations%2C+Finance+and+Budget+Working+Group+%28OFB-WG%29+Call
15:45:10 From Roberto to Everyone:
@John and @Siva - if it is “indiscerible” no wonder that people have different opinions about where it lies :-)
15:45:34 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN org to Everyone:
Noted, thank you Yrjö
15:46:28 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
People should familiarize themselves with the Epik data breach. (AOB)
15:46:34 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
I already took a quick look at .name amendment, but I am not sure if we need to comment. I will take another look
15:47:25 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
Thanks Heidi
15:47:26 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN org to Everyone:
Thank you Hadia
15:47:44 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Lots covered today, thanks to all contributors... Bye for now then...
15:47:56 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
Thank you all - bye for now
15:47:59 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN org to Everyone:
Thank you all! Epic CPWG :)
15:48:01 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone:
A very productive and interesting meeting, as usual :)
15:48:01 From alberto soto to Everyone:
Thanks, bye bye!!
15:48:06 From Dave Kissoondoyal to Everyone:
Thanks and bye to all
15:48:09 From Herb Waye to Everyone:
Take care everyone, stay safe and be kind.
15:48:30 From Chokri Ben Romdhane to Everyone:
Thank you
15:48:42 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Thank you
15:48:46 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Good night and later all. :)
15:48:55 From Alfredo López to Everyone:
Gracias
AT-LARGE GATEWAY
At-Large Regional Policy Engagement Program (ARPEP)
At-Large Review Implementation Plan Development
