Zoom chat: 2021-05-19 At-Large Consolidated Policy Working Group (CPWG)

11:58:11 From Claudia Ruiz to Everyone:
Welcome to the At-Large Consolidated Policy Working Group Call
11:59:56 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
Hi all
12:00:20 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone:
Too much information Olivier!!
12:00:27 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone:
LOL
12:00:58 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Hello all, welcome :)
12:01:12 From Heidi Ullrich to Everyone:
Welcome, all.
12:01:18 From alberto soto to Everyone:
Hello everyone!
12:01:19 From Peter Knight to Everyone:
Hi from Corvallis, Oregon, I’m new to this /w[
12:01:31 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Welcome @Peter
12:01:33 From Marita Moll to Everyone:
Sorry -- had no audio there for a bit
12:01:38 From Peter Knight to Everyone:
CPWG
12:01:40 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone:
welcome Peter
12:02:08 From Lutz Donnerhacke to Everyone:
I hope my Internet connectivity will become better during the call
12:02:12 From Peter Knight to Everyone:
I remember some of you from Toronto and Buenos Aires ICANNs
12:04:22 From Michel TCHONANG LINZE CAPDA CMR to Everyone:
Hi everyone
12:04:24 From Marita Moll to Everyone:
Welcome Peter. I am in Ottawa but never made it to the Toronto ICANN. I heard CIRA outdid themselves with a social at the top of the CN tower
12:05:29 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone:
it was great
12:05:37 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone:
great memories
12:06:02 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone:
yep.. memories..
12:07:03 From Matthias Hudobnik to Everyone:
Hello 
12:08:46 From Michel TCHONANG LINZE CAPDA CMR to Everyone:
Is ok thank you a lot
12:09:21 From Herb Waye to Everyone:
Greetings everyone always nice to drop in and see familiar names and hear familiar voices.
12:09:52 From Dave Kissoondoyal to Everyone:
Hello everyone..sorry for being late
12:10:19 From Chokri Ben Romdhane to Everyone:
Bonsoir Michel j'espère que tout va bien de votre côté
12:11:49 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
On the eat coat!
12:11:55 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
Sorry - east
12:12:02 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org to Everyone:
See At-Large workspace for ICANN71: https://community.icann.org/x/34aUCQ
12:12:11 From Heidi Ullrich to Everyone:
At-Large ICANN71 Workspace: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/ICANN71+-+June+2021%3A+Virtual+Policy+Forum
12:12:39 From Heidi Ullrich to Everyone:
Please bookmark this page as it will have the latest updates for At-Large sessions.
12:13:31 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
@ JK - do you want something from Oz - and the Codes being put in placer online services?
12:15:42 From Marita Moll to Everyone:
Okay, will do JZ. It is moving along quite smoothly at the moment.
12:15:57 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
Program

Introduction (RBL providers interviewed by moderator) 30 minutes

- Larger conversation about DNS abuse and the role of Contracted Parties in mitigating DNS security threats
- Explain role of RBLs
- Explain how RBLs work (data collection)

Discussion (RBL providers remain available) 60 minutes

- How does ICANN org use RBLs?
- What does DAAR tell us about DNS abuse?
- How do registries and registrars use/not use this?

Panel Participants

-Moderator (need someone with technical knowledge who can “translate” this into a general and interactive discussion - potentially Steinar’s contact/CTO)
- ICANN org (OCTO?)
- CPH representative (to speak to broader context of DNS abuse and how this discussion is key to mitigating it)
- RrSG representative (to speak about what registrars do to assist end users)
- End user perspective
12:17:01 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
Looks really interesting
12:20:10 From christopher wilkinson to Everyone:
With apologies for being late. I had another call.
12:22:56 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
.CO, .EU and .IO would be obvious examples.
12:23:03 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Evening all.
12:23:32 From Sivan to Everyone:
@Claudia Commericialization of ccTLDs per se may not affect end users as much as the continuation of the privileges intended for Nation States in the design of policies / independence of the ccTLDs which were considered a special category that need not have been
12:23:39 From Marita Moll to Everyone:
I wonder how speaking about specific instances can be avoided -- the chat will be alive with them.
12:24:08 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Yes Marita
12:24:52 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
@ Hadia - maybe reference to the Circle article by Magrady )sp) that OCL circulated
12:25:01 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
It might be good to differentiate between repurposed ccTLDs and ccTLDs operated for the benefit of the local community.
12:26:30 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Nominet is an issue between the members and registrars and the board/management. It has already led to the removal of the CEO, chair and a few other board members by the community.
12:26:49 From Claudia Ruiz to Michel TCHONANG LINZE CAPDA CMR(Direct Message):
The operator is trying to connect you again
12:26:54 From Marita Moll to Everyone:
Sounds like a hot potato issue to me.
12:27:13 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Please reference link to the ICANN68 workspace, regarding the "ccTLD Governance model session": https://community.icann.org/display/ccnsowkspc/ccNSO+Members+Meeting+%7C+ICANN68

The ICANN68 session was about different ccTLD governance models. The goal of the session was not to decide which model is the best, or to convince others to change their models. The idea is to show that each model has its pluses and minuses, and that we can learn from each other. 
 Four ccTLD governance models were discussed:
* not-for profit organisation
* for profit company
* academic institution
* governmental institution
12:27:18 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Agree totally @OCL!!!
12:27:23 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
Thank you Olivier
12:27:26 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Marita If holy wars over software where bad, they have nothing on ccTLD holy wars. :)
12:28:17 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
@John, I lived through the software wars. I’ll be hard to convince this is worse…
12:29:24 From Sivan to Everyone:
Most of the problems have roots in viewing ccTLDs as outside the purview of the Domain Name System when they in fact constitute an integral part of the DNS.
12:29:57 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
Maybe at least talk to the 4 models Evan has outlines - even if care on using examples?
12:30:08 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
(sorry Evin)
12:30:08 From Sivan to Everyone:
As Olivier says, specific references must be avoided, but rather generically ALAC could pay sufficient attention to ccTLDs
12:32:01 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Marita Think of groups of registants/rights holders each fighting their own war against the registry and nobody bothering to talk to each other and the governments trying to wash their hands of responsibility. And that's just a single ccTLD war. ICANN can be a model of peace and calm by comparison.
12:33:42 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@CW The .EU's reserved lists would be a good example of how some geo names are dealt with effectively.
12:34:08 From Marita Moll to Everyone:
I have my doubts about what can be achieved by At Large running a session on ccTLD privatization. But am happy to be proved wrong.
12:34:46 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Lutz, perhaps?
12:35:34 From DANIEL K. NANGHAKA to Everyone:
I like special agent 
12:35:46 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Thank you Steinar, and Lutz for the presentation
12:35:55 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
A definition of "commercialization" would help. Many ccTLD registries are outsourced to an operator rather than privatized.
12:36:45 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
They’re really more guidelines -=- Pirates of the Caribbean
12:36:57 From christopher wilkinson to Everyone:
Forgive me for leaving the call. I have had a very busy day. I shall read the Chat later.
12:38:53 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Thank you Christopher
12:39:40 From Sivan to Everyone:
Expert overview of the issues indicate that DNS Continuity during Transfer does not happen smoothly. Registrars are the most common providers of DNS service, when you move your Registration from one Registrar to another, that frequently means that you also have to move the DNS service.

If Registrars are the most common providers of DNS service, are there also relatively neutral DNS service providers who do not tie up DNS services to the Domain Name registration and renewal?
12:40:16 From Abdulkarim Oloyede to Everyone:
appologies am a late
12:41:21 From DANIEL K. NANGHAKA to Everyone:
In most cases DNS records are not transfered automatically. DNS continuity is still a challenge
12:41:27 From Sivan to Everyone:
In ICANN's TLD delegation process, there are complicance requirements such as Data Escrow, are there any ICANN processes assoicated with Registrar Accreditation process that require Registrars to maintain DNS data in a common escrow?
12:42:29 From Claudia Ruiz to Everyone:
https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN
12:43:07 From Sivan to Everyone:
@Daniel, if DNS continuity is a challenge, that could unintentionally serve to discourage Registrants from moving services, if not downright trap the Registrant with one Registrar.
12:44:14 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Sivan some registrars already offer a discount renewal if a registrant requests an authinfo code. It is a very competitive market.
12:45:51 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@John, Competition can take the form of encouraging registrants to shop for better services, but not in a manner that traps a Registrant.
12:46:17 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
i.e A service provider can not cite competition as a reason for creating barriers for the Registrant
12:47:43 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
This can be compared to the reluctance of mobile telephone services who are still not easy on phone number portablity.
12:47:56 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
In effect, the domain name is not portable.
12:48:04 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
i.e not portable enough
12:48:43 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Sivasubramanian Yes. Some of the larger registrars have a very advanced sales funnel to retain registrants. Movements between registrars are only a small part of transactions.
12:51:23 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@John, the survival and growth of any business depends on the customer base and the continutity and growth of the customer base, it is perfectly reasoble on the part of any Registry, large or small, to desire to retain its customer base, and even to expand its customer base
12:52:40 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
But how that is achieved is by questionable methods, NOT in the case of all Registrars, may not be even by the intent of Registrars in some cases, but there are issues related to business practices in some sections of the Domain Name business
12:53:11 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
As an extended comment, this is also true of services that are built on top of a domain name
12:54:07 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
The expanded issue is this:
12:54:12 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Sivasubramanian Yes. Registrars need to survive but they are always upselling. The industry is effectively dominated by a few major registrar groups. Those added services (CMS etc) act like golden handcuffs to retain registrants. That's part of the reason behind the reluctance of registrars to transfer even when they could save money.
12:54:46 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
registrants rather than registrars
12:55:14 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@John These are issues that need to be addressed, shouldn't we?
12:55:38 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
Thanks for the presentation
12:55:48 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
There is an expanded dimension:
12:56:30 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Sivasubramanian The concentration at the top of the market is one that is going to attract attention from the regulators eventually. It would be useful to discuss these matters.
12:57:00 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
If a service provider can exercise this much control over the DNS continuity, then what would be the degree of control that the service provider exercise over the data and resources tied to a domain name, which asre often tied to the same service provider?
12:57:40 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
Indeed a great presentation
12:58:13 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
for eg, a Web Master has MASTER ACCESS to the email records and the web files of the domain name that is in the hosting space.
12:58:33 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Unnoticed by the community, the control interfaces are designed that way.
12:59:21 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
I need to expalin this a little, as to how it is related to transfer policy... It is an expanded issue.
12:59:43 From Raymond Mamattah to Everyone:
Beautiful presentation and so easy to understand! Well done
13:00:44 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Good presentation. GDPR has made the WHOIS aspect a major issue in transfers.
13:00:54 From laurin to Everyone:
So essentially what you’re saying is that ALAC‘s objective is a working system. : ) 
13:00:55 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
Also - the transfer request is legitimate
13:01:25 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@John, concentration is a peripheral point, we dont have to assume that the integrity and quality of service is inversely proportional to the size of the service provider
13:02:07 From Chokri Ben Romdhane to Everyone:
Yes totally agree with Alan we have to focus on end users issues dealing with this pdp
13:02:56 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Why isn't a Registrar's DNS data mirrored or escrowed, while a Registry's data is escrowed?
13:04:16 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Sivasubramanian Agreed. One of the monthly reports I do tracks about 4K main players (registrars/groups) out of about 1.2M hosters. The concentration aspect is a difficult issue because some large registrars are owned by the same owner so the registrant may not really be transferring outside a group. ICANN may not have the necessary data on these groupings.
13:05:01 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Shouldn't ICANN have the necessary data?
13:05:15 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Shouldn't it be in closer purview of ICANN?
13:05:36 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
Well said Alan - focus on what the policy can fix
13:05:57 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Yup
13:06:00 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
It is an ever changning dataset. It is even difficult to track things even with all the data and the GDPR has made associating the hosters a lot more difficult.
13:07:18 From alangreenberg to Everyone:
@Steinar, if a user isusing the DNS server of the Registrar, then a xfer DOES imply a DNS server shance. No real way to avoid that.
13:08:06 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@alan there are often differences between the WHOIS and actual nameservers.
13:08:16 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Yes that is the representative model that is chartered in this EPDP like the other EPDP
13:08:23 From Chokri Ben Romdhane to Everyone:
+Lutz
13:09:07 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
@Alan: XFER queries must be approved, not sure this a best way.
13:12:44 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Commercial DNS providers are generally well run. The problems generally appear with registrants with a single domain name deciding on their own nameservers which may or may not exist.
13:14:04 From Lutz Donnerhacke to Everyone:
@alan hope you are right
13:14:21 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
There are hundreds of thousands of single domain name nameservers/hosters (hosters being the domain name for the nameservers) in the gTLDs.
13:14:29 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@Alan, DNS serive as a scaled up, commerial service, operated as a business segment by exisiting and new players can be brought under the purview of ICANN policy
13:14:40 From DANIEL K. NANGHAKA to Everyone:
I agree with Alan
13:15:07 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Sivasubramanian Many of the commercial DNS operators are also accredited ICANN registrars so they have contracts with ICANN.
13:15:12 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
+! AG
13:15:14 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@John agree with you, regarding single domain nameservers, what I talked about it an organized DNS service
13:15:18 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
on a commerical scale
13:17:04 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
What I have seen, from time to time, is where a domain name used for nameservers is dropped/deleted and someone reregisters it and effectively takes control of every domain name previously controlled by that DNS.
13:17:50 From Lutz Donnerhacke to Everyone:
@John, COOOL hack
13:18:12 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Lutz Yep. But a nightmare for the unsuspecting registrants.
13:18:37 From Lutz Donnerhacke to Everyone:
All I did in this area was to register the domain Name, an enterprise is using internally,
13:21:38 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Lutz some of the reregs divert the web traffic to PPC rather than steal the domain names. Takeovers seem to be the most vulnerable as the company taking over the old one may not consider the domain name part of the business. Since the doms on the old DNS don't change, and the websites may not even be active, it can go unnoticed for a long time.
13:22:56 From Judith Hellerstein to Everyone:
@john yes and I know many people who had thought they were registering their first/last name for their domain and they went with a bad firm who did not register their name correctly and so when it expired a hoster took it and now she is struggling to get it back and looking at the whole process including possibly urdp
13:22:57 From Sivan to Everyone:
that was a 'previous' hand Olivier.
13:23:15 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone:
thanks @Siva :-)
13:24:31 From Sivan to Everyone:
+1 Alan.
13:24:50 From Sivan to Everyone:
That is alac like.
13:25:02 From Sivan to Everyone:
alak-like
13:25:05 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
Thx @Alan that field add makes sense to me
13:25:12 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Judith Yep. The one year hosters (basically students setting up a web dev company during the Summer) are some of the worst for this. When it comes time to renew, the registrant never gets the notices or access.
13:25:18 From Sivan to Everyone:
alac-like
13:26:41 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Judith A compulsory trusted contact for a domain name might solve some of this but it would complicate matters and would require modifications to the contracts.
13:27:58 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Noted Alan thanks
13:28:03 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
In earlier versions of zoom, a participant could copy the entire chat, but this interface does not allow the chat to be copied.
13:28:34 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Hope it is easy for the Host to copy and retain a record of the chat
13:28:36 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
there will be more work to do
13:28:38 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
If we update the phase 1 recommendations to include the legal/natural field - this cannot possibly be guidance
13:28:44 From Roberto to Everyone:
@Siva try Ctrl-A and Ctrl-C
13:29:24 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
ctl A and Ctl C does not work for copying the whole chat
13:29:36 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
maybe something to do with my operating system.
13:29:52 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
(on the phone there is no control A either
13:30:01 From Roberto to Everyone:
It does for me - don’t know why
13:30:03 From Chokri Ben Romdhane to Everyone:
Export @Siva
13:30:29 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
I dont see an export button either
13:30:32 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
in the chat window
13:30:38 From laurin to Everyone:
Yes, host receives a text file.
13:31:23 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Please save the host's text file, it is usually placed on record, but sometimes missed, not necessarily in alac meetngs, but in some meetings
13:31:43 From Roberto to Everyone:
For the UIM-WP, that I chaired, Staff was providing the chat log after every call, and it was extremely useful for me to run over the discussion
13:32:02 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Thanks Judith noted
13:32:11 From Claudia Ruiz to Everyone:
@Siva, yes, we save the chat and link it to all our calls, they are exported
13:32:23 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Thank you Holly
13:32:37 From laurin to Everyone:
Have to leave on time, thanks all.
13:32:50 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org to Everyone:
See ICANN Learn Courses: https://atlarge.icann.org/get-involved/at-large-icann-learn-courses-en
13:32:51 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone:
I have to rush away too. thank you for an informative session and chat to all WG participants
13:34:30 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org to Everyone:
RSVP here: https://www.circleid.com/events/dns-abuse-forum
13:35:05 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@Claudia Thank you
13:35:27 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Agenda page for the GAC-ALAC meeting today: https://community.icann.org/x/YwfQCQ
13:35:34 From Claudia Ruiz to Everyone:
You’re welcome!
13:37:03 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Please check out the CPWG workspace: https://community.icann.org/x/jYDpB
13:37:14 From K Mohan Raidu,ISoc India Hyderabad Chapter to Everyone:
It is very late in the night now.
Bye bye to all.
13:37:47 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@SocialMedia Set up an Alac account in Instagram, to reach out ...
13:38:02 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
may be even hire a consultant
13:38:13 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
a thousand dollars or so...
13:38:31 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
just to design and promote the alac instagram page
13:38:35 From Greg Shatan to Everyone:
It's hard to make a Confluence page exciting....
13:38:37 From Lutz Donnerhacke to Everyone:
There is a social media work group
13:39:03 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@Lutz yes, cross posting or mispoting it here, as a trick
13:39:08 From Claudia Ruiz to Everyone:
26 May 2021 13:00 UTC
13:39:27 From alberto soto to Everyone:
Thanks, bye bye!!
13:39:27 From Dave Kissoondoyal to Everyone:
Thanks and bye to all
13:39:28 From Herb Waye to Everyone:
Take care everyone… stay safe and be kind
13:39:31 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone:
I will not be attending the 1300 UTC call unless other meetings have me awake anyway.... Thx everyone... Bye for now
13:39:34 From Chokri Ben Romdhane to Everyone:
Thanks
13:39:34 From Sarah T Kiden to Everyone:
Thank you
13:39:36 From Isaac Maposa to Everyone:
Thank you. Bye everyone.
13:39:38 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
bye all
13:39:40 From Matthias Hudobnik to Everyone:
Thx bye
13:39:42 From Holly Raiche to Everyone:
Thanks all
13:39:43 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Thank you, bye all.
13:39:44 From Michel TCHONANG LINZE CAPDA CMR to Everyone:
Thank all for this great meeting, bye bye!
13:39:46 From Greg Shatan to Everyone:
Bye all. Sorry to be so quiet....
13:39:46 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org to Everyone:
Thanks all! As always :)
13:39:53 From Roberto to Everyone:
Bye all
13:39:59 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Later all.