Attendees:
Sub-group Members: Avri Doria, David Einhorn, David McAuley, Ellen Blackler, Gonzalo Navarro, Greg Shatan, Kavouss Arasteh, Leon Sanchez, Marilia Maciel, Mark Carvell, Matthew Shears, Niels ten Oever, Tatiana Tropina
Staff: Alice Jansen, Bernie Turcotte, Brenda Brewer, Trang Nguyen
Apologies: Seun Ojedeji, Martin Boyle
**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**
Transcript
Recordings
- The Adobe Connect recording is available here:
- The audio recording is available here:
Notes
Documents Presented
- To Dublin and beyond.pdf (page 4)
Chat Transcript
Brenda Brewer: (10/2/2015 09:56) Welcome to WP4 Meeting #5 on 2 October @ 15:00 UTC! Please note that chat sessions are being archived and follow the ICANN Expected Standards of Behavior: http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/expected-standards
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (10:00) yesx
Brenda Brewer: (10:00) Yes, loud and clear
David McAuley: (10:01) Thanks leon, hello all
David McAuley: (10:01) Leon, that is
Tatiana Tropina: (10:01) Hello all!
Marilia Maciel: (10:02) Hello everyone
David McAuley: (10:02) Agreed
Niels ten Oever: (10:02) Hi all
Matthew Shears: (10:02) Hello
Matthew Shears: (10:03) also need to look at the discussion points from LA
Marilia Maciel: (10:04) You are referrig to the spreadsheet, right, Leon? This is where the information is consolidated, I i suppose?
Niels ten Oever: (10:04) audio dropping for me
Tatiana Tropina: (10:05) no probme with audio here, clear and loud
Marilia Maciel: (10:05) It sounds ok here, Niels
Matthew Shears: (10:07) I assume that we have to make that proposal if that is what the comments suggest - but that should be as a result of our analysis of the comments right that are due oct 12
David McAuley: (10:07) I have read most, but not yet all, of the public comments
Greg Shatan: (10:08) Among the things not completely clear, Leon's name.
Tatiana Tropina: (10:08) Greg :D :D :D
Niels ten Oever: (10:09) Text 2 is mostly supported, right?
Tatiana Tropina: (10:10) Is tehre any specific reason why we are going for commitment + bylaw instead of proposing bylaw language? I am somehow against adding an additional layer
Tatiana Tropina: (10:10) ah, ok listening now, but not convinced yet.
David McAuley: (10:11) Greg, if we can settle on a doc like the Google doc would that constitute the framework that you suggest?
Matthew Shears: (10:12) think we need to follow the approach of analyzing the commetns etc. first
ellen blackler: (10:13) agree with Matthew
Tatiana Tropina: (10:13) Agree with Marilia!
Niels ten Oever: (10:15) +1 Marilia I also thought we would be getting feedback from the lawyers on our proposed text that most people agreed to in the comments.
Niels ten Oever: (10:19) yes
Marilia Maciel: (10:19) If the deadline to present the assessment of the comments is in Dublin, we need to have it done in advance. When is our deadline?
Matthew Shears: (10:20) oct 12
Leon Sanchez: (10:20) Yes Marilia. Deadline is October 12
Marilia Maciel: (10:21) Thanks. What is the approach to do it? We all read and who proposes the first draft of the assessment of comments?
Matthew Shears: (10:22) whoever volunteers - usually 2 or 3 persons
Tatiana Tropina: (10:22) if we have to refer to something. let's agree on this first instead of just working on the document blindly :)
Leon Sanchez: (10:23) Exactly Tatiana
David McAuley: (10:23) Agree w/Greg
Tatiana Tropina: (10:24) Greg, +1. It will be easy to draft the note after we decide on the language. It will just reflect the discussions
Matthew Shears: (10:24) yep
Tatiana Tropina: (10:25) How can we be sure that no controversial susbstance will be added?
Tatiana Tropina: (10:25) like the bylaw comes back from the lawyers and we see something we discussed and decided to drop
Matthew Shears: (10:26) legal counsel make suggestions the ccwg decides
Tatiana Tropina: (10:27) ok good
ellen blackler: (10:28) i will volunteer
Marilia Maciel: (10:29) I read most of them too. I can volunteer
Matthew Shears: (10:29) i can assist
Alice Jansen: (10:29) Volunteers: Ellen Blackler - Leon Sanchez - Marilia Maciel - Matthew Shears
Greg Shatan: (10:29) I am volunteering by use of a check mark.
Tatiana Tropina: (10:29) I can join the team too
Alice Jansen: (10:29) Volunteers: Ellen Blackler - Leon Sanchez - Marilia Maciel - Matthew Shears - David McAuley - Greg Shatan
Niels ten Oever: (10:29) I am also volunteering to assist
Alice Jansen: (10:30) Final list of volunteers Volunteers: Ellen Blackler - Leon Sanchez - Marilia Maciel - Matthew Shears - David McAuley - Greg Shatan - Niels Ten Oever
Tatiana Tropina: (10:30) Alice, could you add me as well? or is it final?
Alice Jansen: (10:30) yes :-) Happy to
Brenda Brewer: (10:30) Next WP4 Meeting : WP4 Meeting – Thursday, 8 October 2015 from 21:00 – 22:30 UTC
David McAuley: (10:30) OK - there are enough, including me, to do this in time - we need to divide effort somehow
Matthew Shears: (10:31) almost the whole WP
Marilia Maciel: (10:31) ok
David McAuley: (10:31) Thanks Leon - it makes sense to me
Tatiana Tropina: (10:31) The WP is much bigger :) at least the list on the web page
Matthew Shears: (10:32) just kidding
David McAuley: (10:32) Ticks will do that to you Greg
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (10:32) The one suggested by Jonathan Zuck
Tatiana Tropina: (10:32) Matthew :)
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (10:33) which has been agreed by WP1
Matthew Shears: (10:33) yes the Zuck model is a good one
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (10:33) we will provide the link
David McAuley: (10:33) Thanks Berniw
David McAuley: (10:33) Bernie, that is
Alice Jansen: (10:33) https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/52888421/Budget%20and%20Strategic%20Plan%20Veto-PC2%5B1%5D.docx?version=1&modificationDate=1443790131000&api=v2
Alice Jansen: (10:34) Link to J. Zuck template
Rudi Daniel: (10:36) will read the transcript as I have a meeting currenly..regards.
Matthew Shears: (10:36) well we will have to synthesize I suspect - so two step review commetns and then synthesize
David McAuley: (10:37) This sounds like a nearly objective task - can we divide the work up rather than all comment on all
Marilia Maciel: (10:38) David, there are not that many comments that directly mention this issue
Tatiana Tropina: (10:38) there are 8 people. Not so many comments. I think it's gonna be fine
Marilia Maciel: (10:38) For comparison purposes, I think there is value in everyone reading all comments
Marilia Maciel: (10:39) They are usually short
Tatiana Tropina: (10:39) Marilia +1
Greg Shatan: (10:40) Should each of us start with five comments and then move round robin to look at all the comments.
Matthew Shears: (10:40) yes - we should look at LA transcripts as well
Gonzalo Navarro: (10:40) Taht´s correct Leon
Gonzalo Navarro: (10:40) That´s
David McAuley: (10:42) Nice analogy
David McAuley: (10:42) Fore!
Alice Jansen: (10:42) Link to LA transcript - https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/56135592/Transcript%20CCWG-Accountability%20Meeting%20-%20Day%202-EN.pdf?version=1&modificationDate=1443723741000&api=v2
Greg Shatan: (10:42) We need to work between the calls!
Matthew Shears: (10:42) we could just copy paste the commetns intoi the google doc and then the Zuck model above and just start reviewing and drafting
Niels ten Oever: (10:43) Sounds very workable Matthew
Brenda Brewer: (10:43) 22:00 on is open on 6 Oct
Greg Shatan: (10:43) 19:00 is taken by WP1
Greg Shatan: (10:44) After that is fine.
Niels ten Oever: (10:44) 22h which timezone?
Marilia Maciel: (10:44) Yes, just a quick comment
Tatiana Tropina: (10:44) I am the only one agreeing :)
Greg Shatan: (10:44) UTC
David McAuley: (10:44) 22:00 UTC fine w me
kavouss arasteh: (10:44) Brenda
kavouss arasteh: (10:44) Pls advise to dial me up
Marilia Maciel: (10:44) And yes, I agree with the call, although I will not be able to make it
Brenda Brewer: (10:44) 10:00 UTC til 16:00 UTC has open time also
Tatiana Tropina: (10:44) 22 UTC? We are going to have fun here in Europe .
Greg Shatan: (10:45) UTC is the Official Time Zone of ICANN
Brenda Brewer: (10:45) will send Doodle momentarily
Greg Shatan: (10:46) Speaking of "fun", I note that the CCWG ACCT meeting that day is 06:00 UTC (2-4 am here in NYC).
David McAuley: (10:46) Correct, 2-4 am here in DC area
Tatiana Tropina: (10:46) after fun we from Europe had at LA meeting (time-zones-wise) nothing is scary
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (10:48) @Greg - yes the comments have to be broken down into the various
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (10:48) Not in Excel
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (10:49) re different colours
Greg Shatan: (10:51) So I see, same problem in Google Sheets
Greg Shatan: (10:51) My capacities are not far beyond those of mortal men.
Greg Shatan: (10:52) I cannot leap tall buildings in a single bound.
Greg Shatan: (10:52) I am not faster than a speeding locomotive.
Matthew Shears: (10:52) Greg :)
Tatiana Tropina: (10:54) Greg :D :D :D
Matthew Shears: (10:54) Leon - these are things that we would note in the analysis I would have thought
Matthew Shears: (10:57) understood
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (10:57) 2. Within its mission and in it operations, ICANN will be committed to respect internationally recognized fundamental human rights.
kavouss arasteh 2: (10:58) Now is ok
kavouss arasteh 2: (10:58) TKS
David McAuley: (10:58) no objection here
David McAuley: (10:59) please mute
kavouss arasteh 2: (11:00) lEON
kavouss arasteh 2: (11:01) The verb " WILL " needs to be replaced by" SHALL"
Niels ten Oever: (11:03) But it is in the bylaws, the bylaws indicate the intentions/obligations of the entity, right?
kavouss arasteh 2: (11:03) due to the fact that the former one is deterministic and the latter is mandatory and legal
Tatiana Tropina: (11:03) I think any language will go through lawyers
Tatiana Tropina: (11:03) aw Leon is saying this
Greg Shatan: (11:04) Adams on Drafting: http://www.adamsdrafting.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Banishing-Shall-from-Business-Contracts-ACLA.pdf
Tatiana Tropina: (11:04) Thanks Greg. Very helpful for foreign lawyers.
kavouss arasteh 2: (11:04) Greg
Brenda Brewer: (11:04) Doodle poll sent...please respond as soon as you can! Thank you!
David McAuley: (11:05) Thanks for link, I shall have a read
kavouss arasteh 2: (11:05) I spent 40 yrears dealing will shall, should, will, would, may, might , and so on
kavouss arasteh 2: (11:05) I am serious about what I am telling
kavouss arasteh 2: (11:06) and also can or could or endeavour to or or endeavour doing ....
Leon Sanchez: (11:06) We get your point Kavouss. It is a serious one and will be taken into account. Thanks for bringing it up
Greg Shatan: (11:07) Let's deal withthe substance first, please.
David McAuley: (11:07) I am concerned with making a distinction between fuundamental and human rights - how would we know what fundamental rights are that are not also human rights?
Tatiana Tropina: (11:08) I think we earlier agreed to remove the word "fundamental"
Avri Doria: (11:08) sorry i am so late was chairing an IGF Best pratice forum meeting.
Tatiana Tropina: (11:08) But we seemed to agree on something many times so I lost track.
Matthew Shears: (11:08) we should remove fundamental
David McAuley: (11:09) We are adding a call Avri on Tuesday the 6th - will get a doodle poll in a bit
kavouss arasteh 2: (11:09) Mathieu+ 1
Greg Shatan: (11:09) As I understand it, fundamental rights are the corollary of human rights but applied to entities rather than humans.
Avri Doria: (11:09) unfortaunte tuesday /wednesday i wil miss most all meemtings as i have some very rare paying work i must attend to - a face to face meeting.
David McAuley: (11:09) Thanks Greg, need to give this more thought so I will not comment now
Niels ten Oever: (11:09) The drafting period of that doc has closed unfortunately
Avri Doria: (11:10) unless of course it is the eveing or the wee hours.
David McAuley: (11:10) May be in the evening - possibly 22:00 UTC
Tatiana Tropina: (11:10) Greg, if we go for "human" without fundamental, it will be broad enough to cover fundamental
Tatiana Tropina: (11:10) "human" are applicable to entities (court decisions, etc)
Greg Shatan: (11:11) I agree, we should not modify "human rights" by "fundamental." However, the issue of "fundamental rights" is separate.
Marilia Maciel: (11:11) Fundamental is usually used on national instruments, in a particular jurisdiction, like in a country's constitution. In international instruments we usually use human rights. I agree we should drop fundamental.
David McAuley: (11:11) we already have a CCWG call in wee hours 06:00 to 08:00 UTC
Tatiana Tropina: (11:11) Mrilia +1 thanks for such a clear point
Tatiana Tropina: (11:11) (sorry, typo, I meant Marilia)
ellen blackler: (11:11) agree
David McAuley: (11:11) Agreed
Marilia Maciel: (11:12) I did not understand Greg
David McAuley: (11:12) But I thought we were tasked with looking at human rights
Tatiana Tropina: (11:13) This is redundancy....
Tatiana Tropina: (11:13) It's like referring to a car and four wheels as a part of it
kavouss arasteh 2: (11:13) I do not agree with Greg proposal I hope he forgives me
kavouss arasteh 2: (11:14) aVRI+ 1
Leon Sanchez: (11:15) To me, speaking personally of course, human rights are in nature fundamental therefore would go with just human righte
Tatiana Tropina: (11:15) avri + 1
Tatiana Tropina: (11:15) in addition it's hard to define fundamental without referring to national jurisdictions' context
Tatiana Tropina: (11:16) +1 Marilia
Tatiana Tropina: (11:16) absolutely. It's odd to make reference to fundamental on the international level
Greg Shatan: (11:17) To be clear, I am not in favor of "fundamental human rights"
Tatiana Tropina: (11:17) Greg, absolutely, that's understood, but you want to separate and refer to both, but it doesn't make sense
Mark Carvell GAC - UK Govt: (11:18) The text of the Council of Europe Declaration on ICANN which I referred to on Saturday says internationally recognised human rights laws and standards."
Tatiana Tropina: (11:18) my first question when I see such a reference will be "an which jurisdiction does this refer to?"
David McAuley: (11:18) Thanks Mark - seems very good
Tatiana Tropina: (11:19) Looks good to me.
David McAuley: (11:19) I like that Leon
Marilia Maciel: (11:20) I would still prefer only human rights for being general and culture neutral
Tatiana Tropina: (11:21) I know that after public comments we better to consider references to documents but I am still not convinced it's a good idea.
Marilia Maciel: (11:21) Ok, sounds good
Tatiana Tropina: (11:22) To Human Rights conventions, etc
Marilia Maciel: (11:23) Thanks, Mark
Mark Carvell GAC - UK Govt: (11:24) Glad to be of some help!
David McAuley: (11:24) Agree w/Kavouss
David McAuley: (11:25) None here
Tatiana Tropina: (11:25) Leon, thanks a lot!
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (11:25) bye all
Tatiana Tropina: (11:25) bye all
Mark Carvell GAC - UK Govt: (11:25) Very helpful call - thanks to eveyone. Bye
David McAuley: (11:25) Thanks all, bye
Niels ten Oever: (11:25) Thanks
Marilia Maciel: (11:25) Bye!
