Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Thank you.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: All right, thank you, I have to click the goddess button.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: um alright everybody good morning Good afternoon, good evening, this is, for the record i'm Stephen Derek chair the CCS every few mechanism working group.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: want to thank everybody for joining today's teleconference and again, for the record, this is the August 10 would get the 10th already.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: To go to to edition of the PDP working group which is tasked with developing I can policy with respect to establishing a review mechanism for the retirement of CCL DS.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: And we have convened this meeting today at our usual linking hundred utc start time I thank everybody for participating and last meetings, out of band time.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: I do trust everybody's had a couple of good weeks since we last convened, and for those who have you actually managed to squeeze in a holiday, since our last call I hope it was enjoyable for you and your family.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: And, as always, I do want to thank those of you who have either stayed up really late or gotten up really early for your participation on today's call.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: And again, as always, a big thanks to our incredible support staff so roll call will, as per usual be taken in the usual manner and thus if you are an audio only please make yourself on the staff.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: With regards to administrative items.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: I don't have anything other than to note depart will not be with us today, I think is best like waterman.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: he's on holiday in western France baking in 3335 degree temperatures, but I hope he and his family are enjoying themselves.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: With regards the Boards consideration of our sister groups retirement policy.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: This is a recurring topic, as you know.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: I regret to say that I have no update yet again the I can't boards continued in action and lack of transparency on this matter to me makes the Vatican selection of pope's look, transparent and contrast, but despite all this.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: i'm i'm confident that we will see a favorable outcome with respect to the retirement policy.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: I just don't know whether it's going to occur in my lifetime, and I mean.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: You know, sometimes they're going to come down with something somewhere, but I can 75 back end so there's always hope.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: And perhaps my hope will transcend my cynicism here so as you can see from the agenda.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: session scheduled I can 75 on the 13th of September.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: it's a decent time for those planning to pitch up in person.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: I feel for people who are not pitching up in person, because God knows what it's going to be for your times, then we also have a couple of additional sessions scheduled community and cross so he sees update.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Regarding what we've been up to as you can also see that i'll get into detail on those later later.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: For those attending remotely you got my sympathies, regarding your.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Attendance we've got hands.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Yes, we do we do hands Bernie I think your first so.
Bernard Turcotte: All right, just a quick note that i've heard the rumor that they're expecting to approve the retirement policy at 75.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Thank you Bernie.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: I was not at liberty to disclose that.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: So i'm glad you did.
Bernard Turcotte: i'm not disclosing anything i'm saying there's a rumor.
Right.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: we're on this we're on the same we're yeah we're on the same wavelength there that's why I said, you know I.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: I sense there's going to be a good outcome there yeah.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Thank you for that and it wasn't needed said that.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: sheet that Nigel.
Nigel Roberts: yeah thanks Stephen I just want to make a draw a line in the sand here.
Nigel Roberts: I just want to point out that there's a and even if this is approved as scenes pleasantly likely.
Nigel Roberts: At I can 75.
Nigel Roberts: Speaking as the person who was attempting to get this approved at the last meeting of the I can build that he was on in October last year, this is how long they've been sitting on it.
Nigel Roberts: And there's a constitutional issue that is seriously undermining the very existence of the CCM so, which is the breach of the I can buy laws, the I can buy laws do not give the I can board discretion to delay.
Nigel Roberts: Consideration of properly approved PDP policies, the I can bylaws say that the.
Nigel Roberts: board shall put this on the next possible meeting after it is submitted with due consideration for their procedures that does not mean that they can.
Nigel Roberts: Take procedures that last almost a year, it means that if they can't get it on the next meeting, it must be on the subsequent meeting.
Nigel Roberts: And if this is allowed to stand it will enable a future I can board to refuse to adopt any CC and so or even Vienna so policy that it doesn't like that we need to draw the line in the sand and make that point thanks.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Thank you Nigel that comment is appreciated this will be a subject to conversation in the upcoming I can 75 meeting between csn so Council and community and the I can board stay tuned.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Art I see your hand is up as well.
Eberhard Lisse: This is not an issue for this working or it's not even an issue for the other working group it's an issue for counsel you have bought it for to counsel if one of us as individuals is concerned, push counsel if we fear that.
Eberhard Lisse: A working group should be concerned and the working group that uses it should be reconvened and deal with it, I don't think we should spend my time today on things that don't belong in this working group.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: everhart comment duly noted note my remark with regards to.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: The upcoming Council and board session at I can 75.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: i'm.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Given that and no further show of hands.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: I think that's about it.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: as a way of introduction to the heart of today's call I do want to remind everybody of our last call with the jam board exercise.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Where we took a first stab at I think flushing out stress test scenarios and situations, so our mission today is to build on that resume work and see if we cannot get a tad more focused on it.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: And for that Bernard if you're ready i'll turn the floor over to you to have a swag to let you prepared for us, based on results from our last call.
Bernard Turcotte: Thank you.
Bernard Turcotte: Yes, I am.
Bernard Turcotte: There I am ready.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: All right, floor is yours or.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Gary Okay, thank you.
Bernard Turcotte: All right, as.
Bernard Turcotte: Most of you should know I prepared a I looked at the jam board tried to grab all the stickies that were made.
Bernard Turcotte: categorize them into similar areas, so we could go through this more efficiently.
Bernard Turcotte: I propose that given this we go through this document series Adam and address all the issues as much as we can today is that OK, for everyone.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: works for me, sir.
Bernard Turcotte: Going once going twice alright.
Bernard Turcotte: First, one retirement, we had three points on that one change of registry operator and middle of retirement, who is eligible I guess someone who is eligible to change his transfers, subject to review.
Bernard Turcotte: Well, a we don't use transfer anymore.
Bernard Turcotte: We use transfer sorry we don't use we delegation, the transfer.
Bernard Turcotte: Is an operation that we said is subject to review and given the length we're talking about for retirements I don't think there is an issue and clearly in the retirement document if we remember we've spelled out this scenario quite clearly.
Bernard Turcotte: So I am assuming that there is an attempt to transfer and it's rejected, and there is an appeal that's what I am assuming from that and that is my answer is that Okay, or is there a clarification needed.
Bernard Turcotte: not seeing any hands all right.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Any anybody have any issue with that.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: not seeing it ernie go ahead, sir.
Bernard Turcotte: Second, one if manager refuses agreement with Diana retirement their retirement is pushed through, how would this play out.
Bernard Turcotte: well.
Bernard Turcotte: The notice of a retirement.
Bernard Turcotte: As we all know, can only be based on a change by ISO so the triggering event, as we call it into retirement document is not an io function, the triggering event is an ISO function and, as such, there is.
Bernard Turcotte: You know nothing to appeal for a standard one I see your hands over her and i'll get to you in a minute we did say, though, that if it's Latin.
Bernard Turcotte: To letter code, which is not in the ISO list I the old exceptionally reserved list that there are some flexibility there and that we can have an appeal of that Abraham.
Eberhard Lisse: And this is the issue for the retirement policy, the return policy says the trigger is not part of our policy and.
Eberhard Lisse: If there is no agreement it's five years I don't sink as much to appeal, but anyway it's a good point yeah.
Bernard Turcotte: Sorry for the endless barking dogs are very excited a potential retirement cct ld manager asking for extension of time and and and I guess being refused.
Bernard Turcotte: Yes, that can be appealed, as we said it's one of the two things under retirement, which can use the independent advice review, so I don't think there are any edge cases there.
Bernard Turcotte: And it's all clearly spelled out in each case.
Bernard Turcotte: Excuse me i'll go close the door before the dogs eat the House.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: I know his dogs they're great dogs.
Bernard Turcotte: US be a dog on the beach or something that gets them very excited So is there anything else on retirement before we carry on.
Bernard Turcotte: Going once going twice.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: knows me so Bernie.
Bernard Turcotte: sold Okay, we had a number of points on the iPhone does not respond.
Bernard Turcotte: also applies to the previous I Fo actions I am unclear what that meant delegations transfers, what if I Fo.
Bernard Turcotte: Does not reply within the deadline.
Bernard Turcotte: I guess they're talking about and I are here i'll make that assumption.
Bernard Turcotte: And you'll remember that we have clearly spelled out and several areas in our proposed policy that if the iPhone does not respond.
Bernard Turcotte: The manager of the car.
Bernard Turcotte: response to that is that it can write to both the CEO of I can, and the CCM so Council stating that the I Fo has not respected the policy and that action is required to correct this Abraham.
Eberhard Lisse: And it stops the clock.
Bernard Turcotte: It stops the clock until actually that's a very good point it stops the clock until there is a response, one way or another.
Good point.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: That.
Bernard Turcotte: If deadline which one, I think that it's covered by our previous answer what, if I have full just not reply within 90 days.
Bernard Turcotte: Unclear to what, but again I think the previous answer covers that suggestion add language enforcement to respect appropriate I think we've covered that.
Bernard Turcotte: If no response extension is automatically granted i'm presuming, this is a request for an extension under retirement, although it's not spelled out.
Bernard Turcotte: And that it was refused and that there was an Ai our request and then somewhere along the process, the iPhone did not respond.
Bernard Turcotte: Then we would have the mechanism that we just talked about.
Bernard Turcotte: So I think that covers if Joe does not respond any other points or comments.
Bernard Turcotte: neighbor her.
Eberhard Lisse: In and I are a stopping of the crop does not resolve the issue is that, if I have if if oh does not respond and it's automatically granted it's it stops the clock.
Exactly.
Bernard Turcotte: I think you know, for me, it was a forest from the trees issue, it was so obvious, but now that we're talking about it and that's the whole point of doing this teasing out these little things so i'll fix that in the language very easy.
Bernard Turcotte: All right.
Bernard Turcotte: Anything else.
Bernard Turcotte: On if Joe does not respond.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: let's see any comments Bernard carry on, sir.
Bernard Turcotte: All right language comment, the language might be for implementation phase, I guess they're talking about multiple languages, if someone wants an ir review, but is only communicating in a non English language all right.
Bernard Turcotte: This is unfortunate, but a reality of our world everything with the CFO is done in English.
Bernard Turcotte: And therefore, if it's a cct ld and they wish to use an ir, we should make it, we have made it up to now, or requirement that it be in English if we're going away from that.
Bernard Turcotte: that's a huge and I do mean huge can of worms because we considered this for several months in the iot work i'm doing in the other group and basically after several months of work, everyone agreed that we should just Canada and it's going to be English Abraham.
Eberhard Lisse: And we have Kim and amy on the call, so I can ask them has there ever been communication with with regard to delegation revocation transfer of retirement from the cct ad manager in any language other than English.
Kim Davies - IANA: that's a good question.
Kim Davies - IANA: i'd say yes, we definitely get communications in other languages we try to minimize it, but some applicants are incapable of communicating in English so sometimes we need to bring in translation services or intermediaries to facilitate the discussion.
Eberhard Lisse: To follow on that.
Eberhard Lisse: Do you think this is going to be worthy of being included in the policy or do you think.
Eberhard Lisse: We can handle it the way it has always been and.
Kim Davies - IANA: I think in terms of our procedures we tell people, we need to communicate in English, but even then we we try to accommodate as best we can so.
Kim Davies - IANA: You know if if this group is happy with that continued approach than i'm comfortable with with continuing on that same basis that the expectation is communicating in English, but we didn't raise them will try to accommodate exceptions.
Bernard Turcotte: Thank you, Kim a bird is that okay.
Eberhard Lisse: Yes, I mean the triggering event is obviously not only in English, but in fact as a United Nations language, but I am very happy with the way it is, I do not believe that SEC, to the manager should be getting away with saying I can read audio rfc but I can't speak English.
Eberhard Lisse: Good point.
Stephen.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: i'll take a different twist on that Thank you Bernard.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: My concern is if we get a non English speaking CC manager involved.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: down this path that.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: I can org I Anna can provide them.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: A means to communicate with them in a.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Non.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Non discretionary doesn't describe it, but you know non intimidating manner and, from what I just heard from cam it sounds like that is what I am is trying to do so, I support that Thank you.
Bernard Turcotte: And let's not forget before I get to Nigel that.
Bernard Turcotte: The cct ld manager can nominate, whoever they want to be the contact point and fill out the forms.
Bernard Turcotte: I mean the CCTV ld manager has the final responsibility for doing that so we're not taking anything away from them, but if they have a problem with English and they have someone else on their staff, that is.
Bernard Turcotte: Satisfactory they can nominate that person and do that Nigel.
Nigel Roberts: thanks first of all I want to really.
Nigel Roberts: underline and support what Bernie said a little while ago because i'm actually I put this, I have also got the scars from being on the iot and.
Nigel Roberts: I thought it was good to hear a laugh.
Nigel Roberts: And I don't know if i'm still on it my I was trying to stand down at one point.
Nigel Roberts: and seen anything go pass for a while, so maybe i've managed to escape.
Nigel Roberts: This this there were other things, but this was one of the ones which.
Nigel Roberts: i'm fruitfully exercise the Group for a long while the policy has got to be simple, we have got to say all appeals must be in English every assistance will be given, where there is difficulty.
Nigel Roberts: But all appeals was being English and kinda was point about the rsc is kind of true we.
Nigel Roberts: We might in other circumstances, say that we would accept or proceedings in French, but that's going to but I can't do another expense I just think all proceedings must be in English, but every assistance will be given, where there is difficulty that's what the policy should say.
Bernard Turcotte: Well, I think it comes back to kim's point you basically say in English, our policy, says the car manager can assist the applicant, if needed, to my mind that stretches into.
Bernard Turcotte: Getting I can translation resources involved if needed.
Bernard Turcotte: I certainly can handle the French maybe some Spanish, but if there are Chinese or.
Bernard Turcotte: Slavic languages that's more complicated, but I believe our policy is fine as it is, if we start going down that that slope of saying all available resources will be done will be made to facilitate this we're getting into that and I think my recommendation to you.
Nigel Roberts: yeah I think you misinterpreting I didn't say all available.
Bernard Turcotte: resource okay.
Nigel Roberts: And I didn't say.
Bernard Turcotte: Okay.
Nigel Roberts: I was, I was agreeing with you quite violently.
Bernard Turcotte: All right, we're in we're in.
Bernard Turcotte: Violent agreement.
Excellent.
Bernard Turcotte: terminology issues, I found this one interesting.
Bernard Turcotte: perceived weakness ambiguity of terminology differences in interpretation by up a plant and I Fo.
Bernard Turcotte: Well, to me that's the whole point of the ir the IFO and the cct ld manager do not see eye to eye and cannot see eye to eye disagree about terms and we're saying Well, if that is the case, one of your options you've got surgery you've got an internal I Fo review you've got a.
Bernard Turcotte: you've got a mediation as paid for by I can and we're proposing now to have the I are, as we have drafted it and the whole point, I think.
Bernard Turcotte: Of the mediation is make sure both parties understand the same thing.
Bernard Turcotte: But as really just mediation, as it is and the point of the I are is.
Bernard Turcotte: To make a determination so to me.
Bernard Turcotte: On the first point of terminology, that is the fundamental basis of the ir.
Bernard Turcotte: Is that OK, for everyone.
Bernard Turcotte: Okay i'll take that as a yes.
Bernard Turcotte: But if lawyer on.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: This yes go ahead burnham.
Bernard Turcotte: What if lawyer or others starts reinterpreting.
Bernard Turcotte: Exactly the same answer it's the same problem.
Bernard Turcotte: and
Bernard Turcotte: If we go if you remember what we've structured here.
Bernard Turcotte: There are no lawyers that are presenting with we've removed testimony and interrogation and all the rest of it, the ir is 123 specialists.
Bernard Turcotte: Who are certified have the experience we're going to look at this and come up.
Bernard Turcotte: With a call that if there was there were significant issues with what I Anna di Fo has decided, or they were not, they will not be a weaving of languages we said it clearly in our policy proposal that the.
Bernard Turcotte: reviewers will have to say yes or no, there were significant issues or there were not and that's the basis of what we're doing.
Bernard Turcotte: So, again i'm proposing that the previous answer stands is that OK, for everyone.
Bernard Turcotte: looks like okay third a change of terminology and 3166 results in impact on eligibility of review and this impact under review.
Bernard Turcotte: Okay, I was most unclear on that one.
Bernard Turcotte: How it directly relates to and I are and so.
Bernard Turcotte: Whatever group rope that if you can clarify what you're trying to get to then we'll be glad to look at it and understand it, but as it stands, I couldn't get it Peter.
Peter Koch: yeah this is beautiful the record thanks Bernie um so I might be guilty of having contributed to this part of the confusion and, if I remember correctly.
Peter Koch: arm, it was partly about the change in an external reference that we make, and that is exactly the ISO 3166 dash one standard.
Peter Koch: um we've during the course of the PDP work we've seen that the standard was changed and significant changes in terminology were made when it came to codes and code elements and you name it.
Peter Koch: And this might lead to a different interpretation of.
Peter Koch: off the underlying policies.
Peter Koch: Also changes, maybe not so much in the terminology, but changes of the rules in that standard.
Peter Koch: could also result in, say, different situations.
Peter Koch: As in.
Peter Koch: assume that the exceptional reserve will become more accessible in it will be more predictable if how you get it, or something like that.
Peter Koch: That will probably be a game changer I think I had this and I at least myself had this in mind i'm not speaking for others, does that help in any way.
Bernard Turcotte: A little bit i'll go to a bar chart next because I think he has comment on this.
Eberhard Lisse: yeah I think we will probably have to sort of put in that if there is a terminology change or change in ISO 3166 that then.
Eberhard Lisse: review must be must must be done, I think we have a guideline got glanced at some things need to be reviewed on a regular basis, so we can use that as a president, what if that if if see 166 changes.
Eberhard Lisse: A committee must a working group must be convenient to be viewed as a dis has an impact on our bullish on under under retirement and under the view mechanism.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: and
Bernard Turcotte: I think that's a highly sensible thing we can include in the the rapper to this policy.
Bernard Turcotte: All right.
Bernard Turcotte: And we have a final one.
Bernard Turcotte: terminology procedural language.
Bernard Turcotte: Unless we have someone who can detail this one i'm going to say previous answers will hold.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Anybody have any comments on this based on her last column the jam board session.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: i'm not seeing any many Bernie so.
Bernard Turcotte: All right, okay next section name servers we had a couple of points on that.
Bernard Turcotte: Name servers to name server.
Bernard Turcotte: I don't know if you'll remember it's been a while ago we had the discussion about name servers and we really wanted to address procedures where the control of the cct ld was officially.
Bernard Turcotte: being changed and that's what we did so we picked off all those things name servers didn't make it in that not supposed to use name servers to do a stealth.
Bernard Turcotte: Transfer we used to call it a stealth three delegation and so as just being only a technical change.
Bernard Turcotte: We did not see the point of making data available to or eligible sorry for an ir, it is a rather it's a big mechanism for a small thing, there are other ways to address it, and I don't think we get too many issues on name servers.
Bernard Turcotte: Is that an OK response.
neighborhood.
Eberhard Lisse: For name server changes purely technical once we always have to customer service committee yeah exactly.
Bernard Turcotte: registry has asked for changes and name server and technical demand to make a change this building manager does not respond or doesn't exist.
Bernard Turcotte: well.
Bernard Turcotte: The basis for our policy we've been very clear is the cct ld manager.
Bernard Turcotte: That can apply for an ir.
Bernard Turcotte: And so.
Bernard Turcotte: that's clear and as a eberhardt has said, we were also very cleared that we didn't want to get into.
Bernard Turcotte: Name server changes so.
Bernard Turcotte: To me that's.
Bernard Turcotte: Our responses is just not in the policy to be covered, so it doesn't matter whether the CC tell the manager response or not we're not covering name server changes is that OK.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: not see objections.
Bernard Turcotte: All right, great now other issues are going to have some fun with this, I think.
Bernard Turcotte: situation to eating applications to review i'm guessing that's an ar ar and at the same time.
Bernard Turcotte: Internal now, this is just to be clear, this is not my bad typing when I retired this one, I actually.
Bernard Turcotte: took them exactly as they were on the jam board, just in case you're wondering so i'm trying to auto correct, as I go through it situation to competing applications for review and at the same time, internal if oh review.
Bernard Turcotte: that's a good point we haven't.
Bernard Turcotte: Given status as to can there be other procedures ongoing at the same time, my feeling on that is that know there cannot be we've said that there cannot be.
Bernard Turcotte: To ongoing our applications for the same case and I guess, we would have the same thing here but hey Burt may have a separate view on this.
Eberhard Lisse: No, I don't think we can have this situation there is either to competing applications for review or.
Eberhard Lisse: At least one application for review and an internal if overview and that is very clear in internal overview comes first and once and only one once this is resolved or finalized, then the.
Eberhard Lisse: Even becomes possible and what happens if there is two competing ones is a separate issue I don't really know how to deal with this.
Bernard Turcotte: we've actually described that and the register tree managers section and the applicant section, where we say basically.
Bernard Turcotte: Well, the only situation where they could be multiple applicants is for a new CCTV where they are multiple applicants, all the other.
Bernard Turcotte: Things are geared to a running CCTV manager if a CCTV manager applies for transfer it's only the cct ld manager that can apply for an ir so.
Bernard Turcotte: All the other cases don't apply, so the only place where we would have competing applications is for a new cct ld in a case where there are.
Bernard Turcotte: Three applicants or more let's say but let's say three, which is rather rare I would believe and one gets it and two are upset.
Bernard Turcotte: To apply and basically in our draft policy, what we say, is there can be multiple applications for an eye, are targeting this specific case, but the first one to get approved.
Bernard Turcotte: will be the only one that will be considered, because once approve the mandate of the reviewers is to review all everything that happened in that delegation, so the.
Bernard Turcotte: The second party which.
Bernard Turcotte: didn't get its request approved for an ir is not losing out because we're not doing a review specific to the applicant.
Bernard Turcotte: we're doing a review specific to the case and the case was the delegation of a new CC tail D and the reviewer.
Bernard Turcotte: or reviewers will look at everything and all the applicants for that to see if there were significant issues because we're not trying to determine who is should go to we're simply trying to determine where.
Bernard Turcotte: There any significant issues so it's not our job to decide who is should go to, and therefore I think that covers that situation quite well is that OK, for everyone.
Bernard Turcotte: All right, that looks good.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: And objections, thank you for now.
Bernard Turcotte: Okay change of existing policies that revert to review mechanism.
Bernard Turcotte: I.
Bernard Turcotte: I I parse that i'm just not sure what is being asked.
Bernard Turcotte: The someone have some clarity on that.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Whatever group was responsible for that one if someone can step up that would be appreciated.
Bernard Turcotte: not see it so i'm.
Bernard Turcotte: Proposing we skip that one due to lack of clarity going to the third one, if all has lost contact but registry is operating.
Bernard Turcotte: hey Burt.
Eberhard Lisse: Well finish what you're saying, I just wanted to get into Q.
Bernard Turcotte: Okay, if I was lost contact but registries operating.
Bernard Turcotte: lost contact little unclear about what that means.
Bernard Turcotte: and
Bernard Turcotte: If it's about the manager.
Bernard Turcotte: Then our policy, states that it's only the manager that can apply for an ir so I under the what we're given here that's I think the best we can do I think it's covered Abraham.
Eberhard Lisse: 3D it's only the manager can go for an eye on but, for example in our setup we have.
Eberhard Lisse: The CCTV manager, which is now Nick and we have got to register about the register or boy damages or my dinner, and we have got the register of last resort it's all under one roof, but separate companies, it can well be that in other places it's standard out to third party, for example.
Eberhard Lisse: In India it's I don't know which one of the two big ones, it is in Australia is it it's it's turned out commercially so it can where let's say in one of the countries in a small country, so it sits on a big eye on this easy to do manager goes away but.
Eberhard Lisse: godaddy guns it on the big island and they need to do something, but I am they can still communicate and so tell us your name, Sir, Sir, Sir changes to getting signing, but we are our policy is going to be it's only the city or the manager and if there is no contact and it's not pure.
Bernard Turcotte: I agree.
Kim.
Kim Davies - IANA: yeah more or less confirming whatever he just said, I mean you know there's many different models, but a lot of tlc manages use registry service providers or other third parties.
Kim Davies - IANA: To assist them in providing this service, but those third parties have no direct relationship with Diana like we might know who they are, we might interact with them.
Kim Davies - IANA: in the normal course of business but but formally it's the The Management Organization has been nominated the security manager there, there were direct there are customer, so I don't know if that's helpful clarification, but I think it's just confirming.
Bernard Turcotte: One degrees, which is.
Bernard Turcotte: Why, we did what we did here, thank you very much for that Kim.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Thank you can.
Bernard Turcotte: So is that OK, for one neighbor.
Eberhard Lisse: And i'm just want to follow up what Kim said it there may be situations where a CCTV man has gone away, but the registry operator or the United States operator needs to get his name say my name server change through to keep the CD CCTV operating.
Eberhard Lisse: I don't think there's an issue for us to review, but i'm quite sure that.
Eberhard Lisse: I have always going to deal with this list once be.
Bernard Turcotte: Nothing so to.
Bernard Turcotte: All right, not seeing any hands on that one.
Bernard Turcotte: let's move to the new one, the next one rather renew country code ISO declined.
Bernard Turcotte: huh.
Bernard Turcotte: Again i'm unclear Can someone help me clarify this.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: as am I anybody who was in that group that talked about that next step forward and provide some clarification plays.
A big heart.
Eberhard Lisse: don't you.
Eberhard Lisse: Remember.
Bernard Turcotte: We had I remember, I remember.
Eberhard Lisse: There was a there was a CCTV manager and then there was a government of the day, and says that the place where there is only 25 radioactive penguins and to biologists doesn't need a mcc to do, and so it could happen that if a can for out, and then there is also raise another one.
Eberhard Lisse: In the Dutch until this day, so when when the Dutch anthem is split into four so constituent countries there is a few small ones.
Eberhard Lisse: That are called that's special municipalities, they have an ISO code, but they said we're so small, we want to another dot.nl so there might be an applicant and, but there is no.
Eberhard Lisse: Your God, so that can that can actually happen.
Bernard Turcotte: Okay, but that doesn't really impact, our policy.
Eberhard Lisse: Know whoever applies and doesn't get it can make an.
Eberhard Lisse: APP us for review and then it kept some doubtless.
Bernard Turcotte: yeah yeah.
jaap akkerhuis: I need to correct a bite here and.
jaap akkerhuis: it's not.
jaap akkerhuis: three islands determines the abilities, I acknowledge the best island, we also known as doesn't tailors and syntactically after uncle as well and.
jaap akkerhuis: Some the time of death.
jaap akkerhuis: and
jaap akkerhuis: Thank you, yes that's what they have.
Eberhard Lisse: Yes, they have a they have a ISO code, but they had a step specifically they don't want to have a CCTV they want to run under.nl I have, I have it correspondence, maybe Kim can can say something, but it's not it's not really relevant.
Eberhard Lisse: Well, the point.
Eberhard Lisse: The point is the point is it doesn't matter really.
Eberhard Lisse: The point is, it can happen.
Eberhard Lisse: yeah so that's what I wanted to say.
Bernard Turcotte: All right, Kim.
Kim Davies - IANA: yeah I don't see a distinction between any of these cases and.
Kim Davies - IANA: it's just it's just another form of a delegation, so if a delegation doesn't succeed because I an rss is it doesn't comply with the policy requirements, then that's that's grounds for a review.
Kim Davies - IANA: Well, in the case of wm that's a to D that previously was delegated it's not today, but if someone was to apply for a second time around, for that to be delegated to be assessed under.
Kim Davies - IANA: The contemporary policy, and if that is unsuccessful, then I didn't see that cases being any different from any other any other delegation request that's been successful thanks.
jaap akkerhuis: Seamus with it.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: You can who amongst us speaks penguins so carry on Bernard.
Bernard Turcotte: Radioactive penguin YAP your hands still up.
Okay, thank you.
Bernard Turcotte: That was exciting read delegation request.
Bernard Turcotte: I make the point every delegation, no longer used.
Bernard Turcotte: Read delegation requests period.
Bernard Turcotte: transfers are covered in our policy.
Bernard Turcotte: I don't know what else to say on this scenario anybody have any additional explanations on this one.
Bernard Turcotte: Does up Peter.
Peter Koch: This is Peter again, I think I remember that this was about a requested transfer under retirement.
Peter Koch: Okay, so we already covered that.
Peter Koch: But it.
Bernard Turcotte: was one of the first cases we covered today.
Peter Koch: Okay, all right great.
Okay.
Bernard Turcotte: back and.
Bernard Turcotte: Bach and registry provider cct ld manager DNS service operator, etc, what is issue between the parties again i'm unclear eberhardt.
Eberhard Lisse: doesn't concern us we're only dealing with the security manager and the only case where this becomes an issue is where the security or distribute the stability of the DNS is concerned, and I have all will act responsibly yeah it's not in such in all in these cases.
Bernard Turcotte: it's not our thing.
Bernard Turcotte: The relationship between all the various parties which can operate a cct ld is not our case, this is why we said it's the cct ld manager, we do not want to get involved in figuring out is it a is it be, is it C is a D, what happens if there are two.
Bernard Turcotte: Competing apple it's no no cct ld manager, end of story.
Bernard Turcotte: i'm taking that that's okay for everyone.
Okay.
Bernard Turcotte: Are the parties who are involved in operation of the cct ld all covered.
Bernard Turcotte: Well, I think we just answered that no it's the cct ld manager.
Bernard Turcotte: neighbor.
Eberhard Lisse: Yes, as long as the other security manager.
Bernard Turcotte: tomatoes tomatoes, yes.
Bernard Turcotte: Thank you for that Abraham several requests, what kind of requests I don't know from different organizations and technically, they are correct i'm really uncertain what we're talking about we're talking about several ir requests.
Bernard Turcotte: we're talking about several applications for a delegation of the cct ld.
Bernard Turcotte: anyways the several ir request scenario we've already discussed there is a process in the draft policy that says, for a given case, if there are multiple applications as can only happen in the case of a delegation.
Bernard Turcotte: Then the first one to get approved by the manager will be the one that will run.
Bernard Turcotte: As far as a.
Bernard Turcotte: and technically, they are correct.
Bernard Turcotte: I think still comes back to the same so.
Bernard Turcotte: We have a policy for dealing.
Bernard Turcotte: With several aar request and if we're not talking about a our requests there if oh issues is not okay.
Bernard Turcotte: looks like it okay multi parties affected by Decision in similar case.
Bernard Turcotte: Only one applies for review.
Bernard Turcotte: Is there a precedence, a review result does that apply backwards.
Bernard Turcotte: I found this interesting.
Bernard Turcotte: A.
Bernard Turcotte: Each individual I am if oh decision.
Bernard Turcotte: Can the cct ld manager can apply for an ir.
Bernard Turcotte: And so.
Bernard Turcotte: If there were.
Bernard Turcotte: several cases, then they would have to apply independently.
Bernard Turcotte: There is no jurisprudence, where a decision in one case will apply overall now if and i'll get to in a second neighborhood I see you if.
Bernard Turcotte: The review identifies a failing in the IFO processes procedures, etc, which ends up being corrected.
Bernard Turcotte: Then, and there were other parties who did not apply for an ir or at the time Dir was not good.
Bernard Turcotte: That decision will not carried through, where we're not there for that at all it's a whole other mechanism and.
Bernard Turcotte: I think, and under that kind of a scenario would be guy foes responsibility to go back and look at other similar cases neighbor.
Eberhard Lisse: I mean, on the one hand, is the multiple applications situation only one becomes active, but in situation will be looked at properly and completely, the question is, if something is identified, that is.
Eberhard Lisse: wrong in as far as I have always concerned or processes or whatever it is, is concerned, and that is.
Eberhard Lisse: retrospectively another case where this would have made a difference.
Eberhard Lisse: We.
Eberhard Lisse: Probably need that's an edge case that we probably need to.
Eberhard Lisse: Look at other words let's say I have always doing something completely out of order, get away with and just hear me out i'm not saying it would ever happen gets away with it on one.
Eberhard Lisse: On one case, because there is no I are and because if there is an eye on it would either be identified on on if not identified then later, it cannot be superseded by another I.
Eberhard Lisse: But if it was if there was no I on in the manager says, our.
Eberhard Lisse: And then in a similar case five years, two years later it's it's found that that was a big mistake by Ford, and if that had been decided at previously, that would have had led to a different outcome, then we must find a way of dealing with it's probably.
Eberhard Lisse: The rarest of cases of already.
Eberhard Lisse: A rare situation, but I think that's a legitimate concern that if.
Eberhard Lisse: Something is identified that would have made a difference in past cases where there has not been an eye on an eye on, then I think that should be in some other way, be considered.
Bernard Turcotte: let's.
Bernard Turcotte: Understand neighborhoods point.
Bernard Turcotte: And it has some value I think what we have to keep in mind is we're talking about.
Bernard Turcotte: What you can apply for an eye, are are things that change the ownership of a CCTV my issue with what we're talking about is if there was an issue a couple of years ago it went through the ownership of the cct ld changed, two years ago.
Bernard Turcotte: What is, I will get to you in a SEC, I understood, I even think I know what your point is.
Bernard Turcotte: it's obviously going to be very difficult, as we said at the beginning of this process, this is why we're stopping the io from implementing decisions until.
Bernard Turcotte: The car is completed, because once the change is made it's very hard to unwind this now This being said, the irs does not make those decisions it just makes a finding now should.
Bernard Turcotte: The person who was on the losing end of something be able to apply, two years later, so because there is no active case that's not a negligible change to the policy we have we would have to structure, a whole other branch of the policy to say well if it's a retroactive case.
Bernard Turcotte: Then.
Bernard Turcotte: Here is what we would do Abraham.
Eberhard Lisse: But let's say extension extension of from five to 10 years yeah.
Eberhard Lisse: Eiffel says no until she's a Dr D major says.
Eberhard Lisse: And gets but, but then two years or one year before it's finished somebody else gets away with an eye on the same situation.
Eberhard Lisse: That is 10 a situation where the.
Eberhard Lisse: activity can rectify can still be magnified are still.
Eberhard Lisse: be applied, I fully agree that one suitcase is set when once the dust is settled an.
Eberhard Lisse: appeal request on a.
Eberhard Lisse: I are in a different case cannot change the outcome of already settled case, but I think if there is still.
Eberhard Lisse: A possibility, excuse me.
Eberhard Lisse: Sorry, I to cuff them if there is, if there is still opportunity to.
Eberhard Lisse: to heal a defect.
Eberhard Lisse: In a different case.
Eberhard Lisse: originated by a that should not be without.
Eberhard Lisse: wow.
Bernard Turcotte: Still still creates the same problem we have to create a whole separate branch of process to deal with that because.
Bernard Turcotte: The decision was made and was not appealed, and so I also believe that this is a really, really edge case that we're talking about because.
Bernard Turcotte: I think each case is going to, as we know, in the past is very individualized, and so we would be creating we would almost be doubling the policy text just to handle what I believe is something that.
Bernard Turcotte: is about equivalent to trying to win the lottery, as far as possibilities go.
Eberhard Lisse: Abraham.
Eberhard Lisse: So here, so the outcome, the outcome.
Eberhard Lisse: Let me finish this is justin for the outcome of this edge case is we don't deal with this.
Eberhard Lisse: fine with me i'm.
Eberhard Lisse: i'm happy, this is the rarest of retirement is raya appeals extension or not, and then appeal.
Eberhard Lisse: it's.
Eberhard Lisse: Such a such an edge case that.
Eberhard Lisse: We don't have to deal with it, I agree with that.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Okay, thank you kind of list that's my suggestions chair.
Bernard Turcotte: yeah so not we're just not going to deal with this one, it would be a lot of work, probably for nothing, and it would complicate the policy significantly.
Bernard Turcotte: Alright, and we're at our last one almost right on time, how do we define unreasonably withheld again, I imagine, we are talking about the retirement policy asking for an extension, you will remember that our sister working group we included in there that the.
Bernard Turcotte: The request for additional time from the standard five years should not be unreasonably with hell.
Bernard Turcotte: And we left it at that, if I remember correctly, so this is not a bad question at all.
Bernard Turcotte: And so, however.
Bernard Turcotte: it's almost a question for the retirement group eberhardt.
Eberhard Lisse: reasonableness is a legal standard.
Eberhard Lisse: In many jurisdictions and therefore i'm quite sure that the independent reviewer will have a reasonable reasonable.
Eberhard Lisse: standard.
Bernard Turcotte: yeah I would believe so, also.
Bernard Turcotte: I think we're we're trying to be no pun intended reasonable here, and these things so.
Bernard Turcotte: As Abraham said.
Bernard Turcotte: unreasonably.
Bernard Turcotte: used quite often, and I think they'll be good enough, is that OK, for everyone.
Bernard Turcotte: All right.
Bernard Turcotte: Ladies and gentlemen, we've done it.
Bernard Turcotte: And we've got three or four things.
Bernard Turcotte: let's recap them.
Bernard Turcotte: Definitely.
Bernard Turcotte: We had not.
Bernard Turcotte: included that the time the decision if I Anna does not reply in time.
Bernard Turcotte: that's not the end of the story, the clock stops until there is a reply a bar.
Eberhard Lisse: So just for the to be.
Eberhard Lisse: Final unreasonably yourself we answer this question by saying that it reasonably tested, it will be applied by the independent review.
Bernard Turcotte: I agree with that.
reasonably.
Bernard Turcotte: we've been doing this too long together right excellent.
Bernard Turcotte: And then, a few other little things we've got identified i'll uh i'll make those changes.
Bernard Turcotte: For our next meeting.
Bernard Turcotte: Up Stephen back to you.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Thank you, Sir really appreciate that, and thank you for everyone for your comments and suggestions we're going to go into about five minutes of extra time so be prepared for that I apologize.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: But I think we did make some serious really good progress today and Kimberly Thank you, you read my mind, the agenda is displayed.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: um before you venture into.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: I have no action items don't think anybody else does so let us go to be.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: um.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Is there any that anybody wants to raise.
Bernard Turcotte: Even.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Yes, sir.
Bernard Turcotte: I forgot to mention and the previous point.
Bernard Turcotte: As we saw the wording was in some case in some of the scenarios rather rough.
Bernard Turcotte: I will go through it now that we've gone through it as a group and clean it up, because we usually include this as part of our policy proposal and.
Bernard Turcotte: You know, I think it just makes sense because the average reader will just be as confused, as I was, if I don't clean this up so.
Bernard Turcotte: Following our discussion, I will clean this up, if there were some where we did not get any comments on how to clean it up i'll just drop them so that we have something that is very understandable that we can attach to the policy as our stress testing, thank you.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Thank you, Bernard I trust your word smithing and I believe the rest of the group does as well, so carry on with that appreciate it.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: And where are we.
need to be.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: yeah no other waggle hands.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Moving on to the next meetings.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: were scheduled on the 24th of August so plan on that at the usual time.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: The seven September meeting is tentatively scheduled as a preparation review what the working group will be presenting it various sessions, that I can 75 we have a government session and.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: See Santa so Council gag session and i'm not sure what else um.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: it's rather fluid but stay tuned for updates on the list and be happy to take any contributions.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: On that um and, as you can also see from the agenda displayed we've got a number of sessions that do involve working group.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: I want to stress.
Bernard Turcotte: What time are we using to display the times of the meeting because.
Bernard Turcotte: I see 515 in the morning to 630 I doubt that.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: i'm assuming that's utc but Kimberly can answer that question.
Eberhard Lisse: No, I, I can answer it look at at the number six next next meetings all times in utc.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: yeah yeah six point OK.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: So the.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: utc time.
Bernard Turcotte: they're not see that policies.
Eberhard Lisse: Right is there.
Eberhard Lisse: There may be virtual attendance from the outset, so it's better to.
Eberhard Lisse: Until we have the actual I can meeting for planning purposes, say that for the people who are on site it doesn't really matter it's during the course of the day, yeah.
Bernard Turcotte: I will be one of those who appreciates the utc time, thank you.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: you're yeah you're you're gonna be one of our vampires no doubt about.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: um so.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: What I wanted to know is that the working group has two meanings schedule the first is that the outset on Sunday the 18th at oh 515 630 utc The second is Tuesday the 20th at 830 to 930 utc after all the other working group Community sessions have included.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Tuesday, is going to be a busy day, both for the working group and, especially, for me, as you can see.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: I think though it's critical that we reconvene actual Community consultation sessions to debrief and set a path forward, based on the dais air action with the Community.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: With that, I would like to say I hope to see most you in person, I can 75.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: But again, like don't hog it will be a hybrid meeting.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: So for those you who cannot participate in person, we are diligently trying to make all necessary arrangements.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: To permit you to participate to the fullest extent remotely as possible.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: And I again convey my sympathies with respect to your likely timezone challenges I know bernie's got huge 112 hours for him, so there you go um closure for me, I think that's it, I want to thank all of you for attending today's call and, of course, thanks to our staff for all the work.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: I do wish to encourage you to reach out to Kimberly if you are planning to attend 75 in person.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: This is in your interest, so that I can staff can plan for your physical parents.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: I also want to encourage you, who are planning to attend to pre register on the I can website.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: and also by by what the Malaysian Government is recording with regards to cope with testing vaccinations stuff I just a second and found out about their APP that needs to be downloaded and lens device Papa what i'm not sure what what yet.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: With regards to vaccination records, etc, so I personally am just as clueless as you are, with all that, but it looks like if you're planning.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: to attend in person it's something you need to pay attention to.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: um.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: And lastly, as I said, our last call if anyone is going on a holiday soon as I wish a great time for you and your family, and I think with that Kimberly I can declare this meeting adjourned and you can stop recording stay safe everyone.
Kimberly Carlson - ICANN Org: Even even.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Several days Okay, we have a hand from ever hurt, yes, sir.
Eberhard Lisse: yeah, I just wanted to say something about the EP, I have been trying to work with it to load my sings.
Eberhard Lisse: Funded travelers the APP requires an address which for funded travelers is a little bit.
Eberhard Lisse: difficult.
Eberhard Lisse: Nick Tommaso has told me where I will be staying which is at the oriental, which is what I hear is where most cct ad funded level us will stay.
Eberhard Lisse: The upper ever allow does not allow to be certain things to be entered a month in advance, so you have to wait for September.
Eberhard Lisse: Before you can actually put your arrival in it's a little bit difficult it's could have been done a little bit easier to do but it's fairly.
Eberhard Lisse: easy to upload your vaccination like arts and once you know where you're staying and once it's a week week before your 10 days before we leave you just go sweet and fill all these things in it's not really that difficult it, you need to.
Eberhard Lisse: Do to to play with it don't throw your cell phone against the wall, if you don't like it.
Eberhard Lisse: It asked reasonable questions and the.
Eberhard Lisse: In any case, since first of August, the entrance requirements for Malaysia have been sleek very much relaxed but it's still better to fill this in completely so that you can check in and obviously qr codes at any meetings.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Okay.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Thank you for that update all right with that everybody I think we're done, I appreciate everybody for their time i'm sorry we went 10 minutes in the extra time.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: we'll See you in a couple weeks, thank you very much.
Bernard Turcotte: Have everyone.
Kimberly Carlson - ICANN Org: All.
Stephen Deerhake - .as ccNSO Councillor: Yours Thank you.
Allan MacGillivray (.ca): well.