00:42:13 Abdulkarim Oloyede: JZ.. didn’t realize you are in Georgia am closeby in NC
00:42:18 Goran Marby: I miss to meet you f2f...
00:42:38 Holly Raiche: @ Goran - I think we all miss F2F
00:42:50 Jonathan Zuck: AK, visiting my wife who is in the art department of a film, being shot here.
00:42:53 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Indeed @Holly
00:43:18 Holly Raiche: @ JZ - careful with using the term ‘shot’
00:43:39 Roberto: next f2f meeting in olivier’s office…
00:43:43 Herb Waye Ombuds: I read in the news this weekend that Seattle hit 70% vaccination for its population… that’s hopefully a good sign
00:43:56 Holly Raiche: @ Roberto - totally agree
00:44:05 Jonathan Zuck: A Josh Duhamel movie, being filmed here?
00:44:52 Herb Waye Ombuds: Greetings from the ICANN Office of the Ombuds. Our virtual Office is open for drop-in visits during ICANN71. Details are posted in the discussion forum on the main ICANN71 page. Anyone wishing to speak with the Ombuds team of Herb & Barb can also reach us at ombudsman@icann.org
Stay safe and be kind.
00:45:01 David Olive, ICANN Org: Thanks Herb
00:45:16 Bill Jouris: @Holly, absolutely. Will be great when we can get together physically again.
00:47:14 Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org: Hello, my name is Gisella Gruber and I will be monitoring this chat room. In this role, I am the voice for the remote participants. Please note that I will read aloud comments/questions submitted in English within the time set by the Chair of this session.
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00:47:48 Jonathan Zuck: Aren’t we ALL remote participants, Gisella?
00:48:43 Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org: @Jonathan - absolutely and I hope we will hear the voices of many
00:49:31 Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org: Leon is on the phone bridge
00:50:02 Sébastien Bachollet: Not yet elected by RALOS as Ralos where created in 2007
00:50:03 Heidi Ullrich: Thank you, Gisella.
00:50:03 hadia Elminiawi: great thank you
00:53:50 sergio salinas porto LACRALO: hil all dear friends!
00:54:58 Goran Marby: Adding to Roberto, there is also a law to take into account and that does not make it easier. So cudos to the At-Large to take this on.
00:56:20 Chokri Ben Romdhane: Thank you @Roberto great Backgroung! do you think end users get the place they deserve in ICANN structures ( ICANN MSM) or are they marginalized in favor of business and technical aspects, ?
00:58:05 Roberto: @SeB I stand corrected, in 2003 we had the 10 “interim” and the 5 “NomCom-appointed” - but it was the first time we were 15
00:58:06 Bill Jouris: @Chokri, if you just look at the number of Board members that each group gets, it appears that end users are a bit underrepresented.
00:59:16 Heidi Ullrich: For more on the history of ALAC/At-Large, please take the new ICANN Learn course entitled: ICANN At-Large - Welcome to our World.
00:59:43 Heidi Ullrich: Also, a brief history of the ALAC is available at: https://atlarge.icann.org/about/alac-history
01:00:37 Heidi Ullrich: ICANN bylaws: https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/governance/bylaws-en
01:00:39 Chokri Ben Romdhane: @Bill within policy WG also, end users are underepresented!
01:00:53 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Thx @Heidi...
01:01:12 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: and **well noted indeed @Goran**
01:02:58 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: ALAC /At-Large "acts in the best interests of"those billuons of users of course not Represents per se
01:03:52 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: billions *sigh typos sorry*
01:04:04 alberto soto: +1 Cheryl
01:05:05 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: though sometimes in PDP processes it has felt more like roasting, boiling and reduction processes ;-)
01:06:46 Rafik Dammak: @CLO process comes from processing or vice-versa so it makes sense to go through all those steps :)
01:06:56 Goran Marby: ALAC has a board representation, which is an important part of the structure.
01:07:00 Holly Raiche: I think part of the response is outreach - both informing and listening to larger constituencie
01:07:12 Holly Raiche: sorry - constituencies
01:13:32 hadia Elminiawi: @Holly outreach is for sure very important
01:15:35 Holly Raiche: I also think there is value in saying that there ARE differences, and explain the different points of view
01:17:54 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Absolutly @Holly IMO it increases the strength of our voice not reduces it
01:20:22 Roberto: it increases the strength, but it must be explained well to the outside
01:22:40 Jonathan Zuck: Ah
01:24:16 Roberto: and sometimes people use the internet without knowing that they do
01:24:36 Claudia Ruiz ICANN Org: A friendly reminder for the speaker’s to speak slowly for the interpreters, thank you
01:24:42 Sarah T. Kiden: True, Roberto
01:25:46 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: actually *my kinda fun* but shhh on that ;-)
01:26:32 Chokri Ben Romdhane: some speakers have mentioned the participation of end users into the public comments process, from what I Know the participation of Individuals is very weak, I'm I wrong ?
01:28:05 Jonathan Zuck: Correct, Chokri!
01:28:13 Joanna Kulesza: There certainly is a capacity building element to this @Chokri, something we are trying to attend best we can.
01:28:30 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: @Chokri that really depends on the yardstick being used *and* the topic being covered, but regardless better and more effective outreach/communications is the key to remediation of that observation...
01:29:18 Roberto: @Chokri - on the other hand, quite a few end users participate to the PDP, so participating to the process not just commenting the outcome
01:29:47 Roberto: But I agree, there is work to do to involve more end users
01:31:18 Heidi Ullrich, ICANN org: @Chokri, the At-Large Review Implementation addressed how to engage ALS members and individuals in At-Large policy activities to a greater idea.
01:31:33 DANIEL K. NANGHAKA: There is a lot and also we should not forget that the Pandemic times have affected enduser participation greatly
01:35:01 Maxim Alzoba: the participation in policy process is needed to ensure there are no missed views and that all aspects of a particular issue are properly discussed
01:35:44 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: and ALAC / At-Large has *always participated as much as it can in PDP's G and cc... @Maxim
01:36:22 Maxim Alzoba: it is good indeed. please ensure participation in iDNS epdp
01:37:16 June Okal: Holly that's really well put
01:38:12 Goran Marby: In ICANN…Solomon is mostly the GNSO
01:39:26 Maxim Alzoba: ALAC does not have a veto rights in GNSO process, the same for GNSO in ALAC work
01:40:29 Holly Raiche: I’d have thought that wisdom is - at least to some extent - shared
01:40:43 Chokri Ben Romdhane: @Cherly for sure , I personally I think that ALAC comunity have a great add value within PDP WG, so Its not only a question of representativity
01:40:51 Maxim Alzoba: work with the parts of GNSO to unsure that your point of view is well understood and potentially shared
01:42:11 Jonathan Zuck: @Maxim, being well heard is not the same as getting parties, within the GNSO, to take those issues into consideration.
01:42:17 Maxim Alzoba: ensure, sorry for typo
01:42:58 Goran Marby: Maybe this a good discussion to have with the GNSO
01:43:00 Maxim Alzoba: ideas take time and efforts to propagate, it is the same for GNSO
01:43:12 Claudia Ruiz ICANN Org: Friendly reminder to state your name when taking the floor and to please avoid speaking at the same time for interpreters, thank you
01:43:56 Jonathan Zuck: @Max, definitely true. The problem is that a policy, which might be harmful to users, it put in place in the meantime.
01:45:06 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: As am I
01:45:12 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: and I hear ES
01:45:21 Dave Kissoondoyal - ALAC: I am as well in the English Channel
01:45:23 Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org: Please remember to choose your language on the interpretation tool bar
01:45:40 Maxim Alzoba: @Jonathan, which particular policy do you think is going to endanger the end users?
01:45:40 Jonathan Zuck: WE have done so, Gisella
01:45:48 DANKO Jevtović: yes, same here, and I was on the EN channel
01:45:49 Wafa Dahmani : we dont hear the translation Roberto
01:46:10 Bill Jouris: Still hearing Alberto in Spanish, on the English channel
01:46:14 Jonathan Zuck: I think Alberto has not chosen a language channel
01:46:27 Josh Baulch - ICANN Org: Alberto needs to Select Spanish in the Interpretation drop down.
01:46:30 Holly Raiche: @ JZ - I think he is being told now
01:46:32 alberto soto: I´m in spnish channel
01:46:36 christopher wilkinson: Where is that toolbar? Far RHS of the bottom buttons
01:46:41 Dave Kissoondoyal - ALAC: Hope I could be multilingual like @Sebas
01:46:50 Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org: @Christopher - bottom buttons
01:46:50 Alan Barrett: I don’t think it’s possible to listen to the English Channel while speaking Spanish. If you speak Spanish, I think that you have to select Spanish for listening as well.
01:47:09 David Olive, ICANN Org: Thanks Claudia
01:47:14 Heidi Ullrich, ICANN org: We are working to find out what the issue is with the translation tool.
01:47:25 Jonathan Zuck: Not working for See, either
01:47:29 Marita Moll: not working
01:47:33 Bill Jouris: Now hearing Sebastien in French, while on the English channel
01:47:33 Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org: French
01:47:33 alberto soto: Thanks Heidi
01:47:42 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yup IZ hear FR
01:47:51 Dave Kissoondoyal - ALAC: Non on entend seulement la langue parlée
01:48:10 Chokri Ben Romdhane: non que le Français , lest as enjoy others languages!
01:48:21 Mark Svancarek: no wine?!
01:49:04 Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org: FR and ES working
01:49:13 Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org: After Sebastien, we will try having Alberto speak again
01:49:36 Dave Kissoondoyal - ALAC: Thanks @Gisella
01:49:41 Jonathan Zuck: @Maxim, I guess I’m trying to keep it hypothetical but there are certainly aspects of data handling by CPs, are not what they need to be, for the interests of internet end users.
01:49:52 Claudia Ruiz ICANN Org: @all Apologies- EN interpreter was mutes, have sorted, tool should be working now
01:50:10 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Thank you @Caludia
01:50:11 Jonathan Zuck: Thanks @Claudia!
01:50:17 Jonathan Zuck: We need to go back to Alberto
01:50:22 Heidi Ullrich, ICANN org: Thank you, Claudia.
01:50:28 Avri Doria: I think there is a balancing in determining the public interest, as defined in the Articles, Mission, Commitment and Values. The better the various Advice and comments explain their view of that Public Interest in those terms, the easier it is to take it into account and balance.
01:51:00 Holly Raiche: Thanks Avri - excellent advice
01:51:09 Jonathan Zuck: Thanks @Avri. We need to work with the Board to understand where those things might be lacking.
01:51:39 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Thx @Avri
01:51:59 Jonathan Zuck: Agree, @Goran. In fact, we specified that they be pushed to the community, in many cases. Complex exercise.
01:52:00 hadia Elminiawi: Alberto you are next
01:52:09 hadia Elminiawi: translation is now working
01:52:26 Maxim Alzoba: @Jonathan, if personal data is not properly handled, it endangers end users(more spam and fraud directed to their emails) , and potentially leads to extinction of registrars (GDPR fines instakill almost any of those, same for registries)
01:52:46 hadia Elminiawi: It is working
01:52:49 Dave Kissoondoyal - ALAC: Translation OK now.. great
01:52:50 DANKO Jevtović: yes!
01:52:50 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Working fine now :-)
01:52:54 Sarah T. Kiden: Great
01:54:54 Jonathan Zuck: @Maxim, you are focused on registrants, in particular. In this case, we are not talking about registrants but non-registrant end users. We all know that not all the issues have to do with exposure but just as much with cost and convenience, on the part of the CPs. We don’t need to push CPs to challenge laws, for sure.
01:55:32 alberto soto: Thanks Hadia
01:55:38 Maureen Hilyard: That was great intervention by Alberto.. and highlighted the need for the systems to work so that endusers can contribute effectively
01:56:01 Jonathan Zuck: @Staff, there’s supposed to be a drop in volume of the “original audio,” when the translator starts to speak. This drop isn’t as pronounced as it has been before.
01:56:37 alberto soto: Thanks Maureen!
01:56:46 Maxim Alzoba: @Jonathan, and LEAs have a lot of rights locally to access that data (in the framework prescribed in the local law), and foreign LEAs, and pure third parties at the best (investigation of personal data by foreign agencies sounds not safe enough)
01:57:39 Chokri Ben Romdhane: @jonathan I moved to English manually and the translation works well
01:57:40 christopher wilkinson: Where does ‘the Buck Stop? GNSO is a very imperfect MSM Model. At Large position in NomCom and the Board is effectively neutralised by the Board’s deference to GNSO. Unsuzstainable.
01:58:37 Holly Raiche: @ JZ - but we cannot represent one view when there isn’t just ONE view.
01:58:54 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: yup
01:58:57 Amrita Choudhury: Agree Holly
01:58:57 Lito Ibarra: So, there is the issue of including all voices (Alberto's point) and then there is the issue of finding the General Public Interest in those different voices, and then the issue of taking the wiser decision among all possible
01:59:04 Claudia Ruiz ICANN Org: @Jonathan, I have let tech support know of the issue, thank you for flagging. They are looking into it
01:59:26 Pavlo Burdiak - NextGen: <QUESTION> To follow up on Mr. Zuck`s question. According to the GNSO Working Group Guidelines, "consensus - a position where only a small minority disagrees, but most agree". What if most WG parties do agree, but there is still this small minority of the ALAC members who disagree - can it be considered as a consensus decision that can be adopted later on by the ICANN Board? </QUESTION>
01:59:43 Roberto: @JZ - There are cases in which consensus is impossible, because of conflicting interests - in this case to explain why consensus has not been reached, and describe the conflicting positions, will have a positive effect
02:00:02 Jonathan Zuck: But @Holly, multiple views are very useful in our consensus development but once we develop consensus, we should stick to it. If we don’t have consensus, we don’t really advice to give.
02:00:43 Jonathan Zuck: @Roberto, what do you believe that “positive effect” will be. All we are doing is abdicating the formation of the actual “public interest” to others, when we do that.
02:01:09 Abdulkarim Oloyede: +1 Goran
02:01:11 Jonathan Zuck: Agree, Goran
02:01:22 Amrita Choudhury: Agree to your pov Jz if consensus has been reached
02:01:41 Wafa Dahmani : Agree Goran
02:01:54 Holly Raiche: @ JZ - the critical words - ‘once we develop consensus’. Great when we do, but if there are areal differences, why not say that there are differing views - acknowledge when there aren’t consensus views.
02:02:42 Maxim Alzoba: GNSO has procedures on the website, describing the PDP process
02:02:49 Roberto: @JZ - we should follow up - my opinion is that “advice” is not only “give a single position” but also explain that there are different points of view. It can surely be useful advice for the Board, who has the ultimate word
02:02:56 Maxim Alzoba: about this question
02:03:00 Maxim Alzoba: please read it
02:03:06 Maxim Alzoba: it has answers
02:03:20 Maxim Alzoba: no
02:03:55 Holly Raiche: @ Roberto - well said
02:03:55 Maxim Alzoba: https://gnso.icann.org/en/council/op-procedures-24oct19-en.pdf
02:05:17 Maxim Alzoba: such additional power - will allow circumvention of the multi stakeholder process
02:05:45 Jonathan Zuck: @Roberto, the board should NOT have the “final word.” That’s the point. That’s an abdication of our responsibility. The ONLY role of the board should be to determine if the community executed a good process. The idea of throwing some conflicting views out there, in front of the board, is a FAILURE of the multi-stakeholder model.
02:06:14 Goran Marby: I would like to remind you about something I said in the beginning. We are looking into to potential changes how the board from a procedure perspective handles Advice.
02:06:14 Syed Iftikhar Shah: @Marby, In my viewpoint ICANN needs to do more work and launch initiatives to maximize the number of end user participations in ICANN PDP processes. In this way we get more public community, feedback and consensus on ICANN DNS policies. What is your viewpoint ?
02:06:42 Chokri Ben Romdhane: @Roberto I think that consensus mean that stakeholders have found a way of common interest
02:06:53 Jonathan Zuck: @Max, I understand your concern. I don’t have the answer.
02:07:03 Maxim Alzoba: a members of WG can request adding their text as a minority view into the repirt
02:07:04 sergio salinas porto LACRALO: bye!
02:07:04 Herb Waye Ombuds: Have a great ICANN71 everyone… stay safe and be kind.
02:07:05 alberto soto: Thanks, bye bye!!
02:07:13 Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org: Thank you all
02:07:15 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Apologies I thought the question worthy of a full answer
02:07:16 Goran Marby: Syed, a broad participation in any PDP is very important and I know that the GNSO works hard to make sure it works
02:07:17 Chokri Ben Romdhane: Thank you
02:07:21 Maxim Alzoba: thanks all
02:07:21 Wafa Dahmani : Great session
02:07:23 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Bye for now then
02:07:24 Wafa Dahmani : thank you all
02:07:27 Roberto: @JZ as I said, it is a long discussion that we should follow up - but we are advisory to the Board as primary role - we also participate to policy building, but is a parallel thing
02:07:35 June Okal: Thanks everyone, well done and great conversation
02:07:37 Chokri Ben Romdhane: Thank you Hadia
02:07:41 Goran Marby: Thanks!! Had fun
02:07:48 Timothee Amevo: Thanks you all
02:07:49 Heidi Ullrich, ICANN org: Thank you to the organisers, moderators, speakers and participants.
02:07:55 Jonathan Zuck: @Roberto but we shouldn’t be making advice, if we don’t have clear advice to give.
AT-LARGE GATEWAY
At-Large Regional Policy Engagement Program (ARPEP)
At-Large Review Implementation Plan Development
