13:46:24 From Jose R. Lebron : Hello
13:46:31 From Michelle DeSmyter : Hello :)
13:46:31 From Jose R. Lebron : Hello
13:47:02 From Jamie- CART support : Hello, I'm not the CCer-- she'll be here in a few moments
13:49:01 From Glenn McKnight, Foundation for Building Sustainable Communities : Hey folks
13:49:10 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Hi
13:51:17 From Captioner - Shannon : Hi Michelle, can you set up Captions for me please?
13:53:35 From Michelle DeSmyter : Will do!
13:53:37 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : Good Evening all
13:54:38 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Hi John
13:57:45 From Evin Erdoğdu : Hello all, welcome.
13:58:00 From Michelle DeSmyter : RTT link; https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN [streamtext.net]
13:59:31 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : Evening Cheryl.
13:59:50 From davekissoondoyal : Hello everyone
13:59:50 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : Any updates on that DNS Abuse def on Wikipedia Jonathan?
14:00:44 From Judith Hellerstein : Hi All
14:01:06 From Heidi Ullrich : Welcome, All.
14:01:34 From Leon Sanchez : Hello everyone!
14:01:45 From Matthias M. Hudobnik : hello all :-)
14:02:01 From Jonathan Zuck : Not yet @John, I have to get back to it. I’ve been putting together materials for references and such including the dutch study and some of the work on predictive analytics, etc.
14:02:03 From Michelle DeSmyter : RTT:https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN [streamtext.net]
14:02:44 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : The more citations, the better, Jonathan. The politics on Wikipedia makes ICANN look extremely polite. :)
14:05:18 From Jonathan Zuck : Thanks for the advice John! Never done it before but I get that impression so I’m trying to get my ducks in a row. There’s plenty of scholarship that uses the term DNS Abuse, thankfully.
14:05:44 From laurin : Jonathan, I am happy to help with that.
14:05:57 From Hadia Elminiawi : yes sure
14:06:03 From Jonathan Zuck : Excellent, @Laurin!
14:06:29 From laurin : just let me know where we stand and we can go from there.
14:06:42 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : With anything new, you will end up having to defend your text. The citations angle is like getting your retaliation in first just in case.
14:07:14 From Evin Erdoğdu : Initial Report of the Expedited Policy Development Process (EPDP) on the Temporary Specification for gTLD Registration Data Team – PHASE 2 - Public Comment closes on 23 March. At-Large workspace: https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=126424369
14:08:09 From Roberto : @JZ there are also a couple of European unaffiliated individuals who can contribute - I am in contact with @Joanna
14:08:51 From Jonathan Zuck : Excellent. Perhaps we should do a dedicated call to assign stuff. I believe anyone can edit at this point.
14:09:06 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : RE AI's.... I am not willing to present on PDP 3.0 at an after midnight or clashing call so do not schedule for that until the next 1900 UTC call
14:09:13 From laurin : dns abuse: can we form a list / comment g-doc to collaborate? agree on having a call, JZ!
14:10:52 From Hadia Elminiawi : ICANN org
14:10:56 From Evin Erdoğdu : Thank you @Cheryl noted - next 19 UTC CPWG call.
14:11:03 From Jonathan Zuck : @laurin, I guess I don’t see a huge benefit to doing it in a separate document. We should come up with a ToC and just have it it. We have 6 months within which we have to submit for approval.
14:11:39 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : Be careful with that. Wikipedia tends to view external organizing to edit pages a bit dimly. There's been a history of pages/articles being targeted in this manner.
14:11:51 From Hadia Elminiawi : the accreditation authority is ICANN but can ask third parties to be part of this
14:12:23 From laurin : happy to do it that way JZ, all i want is some form on coordination forum.
14:12:25 From Jonathan Zuck : @John, you mean even dividing up tasks and such?
14:13:06 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : @JZ External organization to edit pages. Agreed text might be OK but it is a very tricky topic.
14:14:01 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : There has been a history of reputation management types hitting articles and some of them still do.
14:14:19 From Lutz Donnerhacke : Alan is correct, It's all about private data (and data which can be traced to persons)
14:14:40 From Michel TCHONANG : Hi all
14:15:35 From Hadia Elminiawi : Contracted parties can sure automate
14:16:44 From Greg Shatan : Some people have been working to hide all this information for 20 years, and they are not giving up easily.
14:16:49 From laurin : Hadia and Alan, when would be a good time to discuss the fee structure. I think we need to speak about that at some point.
14:19:53 From laurin : okay, will wait with my question until then. thanks.
14:20:38 From Holly Raiche : Sorry I was late - I was in the CSC meeting.
14:20:53 From Jonathan Zuck : Makes sense
14:24:48 From Greg Shatan : By the NCSG’s logic, *everything* the Registries and Registrars do is paid for by registrants....
14:26:28 From Greg Shatan : The sentence should only cover money paid DIRECTLY by registrants.
14:27:25 From Holly Raiche : +1 Greg
14:28:11 From Jonathan Zuck : Of course, FB fighting phishing attacks ARE serving the public interest
14:28:38 From laurin : obviously it is.
14:29:00 From Chokri ben romdhane : hi all sorry for the delay
14:29:45 From Joanna Kulesza ALAC : Just to understand this clearly - there is no support from our group for any privacy proxies? Even if they serve end user interests? Or are privacy proxies beyond this debate?
14:30:05 From Leon Sanchez : I have to leave the call. My apologies for not staying till the end
14:30:18 From Holly Raiche : @ Joanna - I’m not sure that is what Alan is saying - ask him
14:30:19 From claudia.ruiz : Thank you, Leon
14:31:10 From Holly Raiche : @ Joanna - is the ‘additional charges’ what you aarereferring to in relation to Privacy/Proxy services?
14:31:26 From Joanna Kulesza ALAC : I'm not sure either - hence the question. Trying to figure out how privacy proxies fall into this discussion on automated validation of requests. Not going to insist on a specific answer here right away. Just curious.
14:32:10 From Joanna Kulesza ALAC : @Holly - it's more about the automation which - as I understand - linked to funding the automation system.
14:32:27 From Joanna Kulesza ALAC : *Is linked
14:33:12 From Holly Raiche : Thanks Johanna - keep your hand up because I”m also interested in the answer
14:33:46 From Holly Raiche : On ‘user type” that could be a real issue
14:34:06 From Joanna Kulesza ALAC : @Holly My hand is not up as I am not certain this is where we stand - might be me reading falsely between the lines;)
14:34:25 From Holly Raiche : I’ll put my hand up
14:35:51 From laurin : +1 to this. to some extent providing this info is part of operational costs.
14:37:54 From Lutz Donnerhacke : So the Access to the data Needs to be localized, too. Than local fees are useful
14:38:16 From Lutz Donnerhacke : /me is advocating thin whois ...
14:38:55 From Joanna Kulesza ALAC : Thank you
14:38:58 From laurin : re Matthias’ comment: depends on country, again I assume in rich countries less of a problem. also asking money for getting basic info might not be well liked by LE.
14:40:01 From laurin : Lutz, it necessarily would be. say I am LE and I want data from a local CP. I have lots of options here, including circumventing the system.
14:40:57 From Matthias M. Hudobnik : its not about rich or poor countries, the fees for the requests are usually regulated in the domestic law
14:41:11 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond : @Alan - thanks for this. I was not aware that WHOIS was still going to work. I heard that the service was going to be turned off
14:41:44 From laurin : Matthias what about request that go across borders? also, I am wondering about theory vs practice. see my comment addressed to Lutz.
14:41:56 From Matthias M. Hudobnik : and telcos are billing every request - it is a good business for them :-)
14:43:25 From Matthias M. Hudobnik : @laurin it depends on the request and obviously on the involved countries
14:44:01 From Jonathan Zuck : Agreed!
14:44:10 From laurin : yes, that is what I am trying to talk about. if it is true public interest I think there have to be carve outs for that reason.
14:44:20 From Lutz Donnerhacke : laurin: local LEA has to follow the Delegation path and may face the Problem to query in a different jurisdiction. So they have to follow the rules for such an Access. That's daily work from them. There is no Need to allow everyone claming to be a LEA full unfetted Access to everything
14:44:47 From laurin : Lutz, I totally agree. sorry if that came across wrongly.
14:44:57 From Holly Raiche : Agree with the purpose
14:45:53 From Holly Raiche : It fits in with our campaign on DNS Abuse does it not?
14:46:09 From Jonathan Zuck : it does @Holly
14:46:11 From laurin : and that wouldn’t be an issue with the other recommendations. what I am worried about is that charging for actual (!) public interest aspects is a problem.
14:46:14 From laurin : his is
14:46:32 From Jonathan Zuck : great work
14:46:42 From Greg Shatan : I believe NCSG wants an explicit definition of “security, stability and resiliency.”
14:46:45 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Thanks Alan and Hadia
14:46:47 From laurin : going through the process is again fine for those with the resources but harder for those who don’t.
14:46:54 From Greg Shatan : Which we can define as soon as we
14:47:09 From Greg Shatan : are finished defining the “global public interest.”
14:47:17 From laurin : I agree this is hard.
14:47:31 From Holly Raiche : @ CLO - Heaven her up - Alan is right, getting too specific leaves everything we didn’t think of out
14:47:40 From Sébastien Bachollet : Keep cool Matthias
14:47:41 From Holly Raiche : (I meant heaven help us)
14:47:55 From laurin : but the discussion shows that it is a relevant to discuss.
14:50:14 From Jonathan Zuck : Per minute basis!
14:50:23 From Judith Hellerstein : per slide basis
14:50:26 From Greg Shatan : Sliding Scale
14:50:51 From Jonathan Zuck : nothing will happen
14:51:00 From Jonathan Zuck : They are already PAYING dearly
14:51:05 From Hadia Elminiawi : Thank you all
14:51:44 From Dave Kissoondoyal - Mauritius : Thanks Alan and Had
14:51:54 From Matthias M. Hudobnik : indeed, great job alan & hadia :-)
14:52:17 From Dave Kissoondoyal - Mauritius : Thanks @Hadia
14:52:22 From Alan Greenberg : Thanks to Hadia who not only did the slides for today, but did the bulk of the work in reviewing the Recs and drafting out comments.
14:52:47 From Alan Greenberg : ...drafting OUR comments...
14:53:11 From Jonathan Zuck : thanks Hadi. Slides make a REAL difference on these types of calls!
14:53:24 From Jonathan Zuck : Hadia I mean., autocorrect. grr
14:53:25 From Chokri ben romdhane : I really share with you this @Olivier epdp becomed a technical/legal WG rather a policy one
14:54:26 From Hadia Elminiawi : Thank you Alan and Jonathan
14:56:20 From Greg Shatan : Personally, I think it’s clear that the Board’s ban applied only to the 2012 round...
14:56:38 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : 2007 was a completely different market with Domain Tasting being the motivation for new gTLDs and also generic strings (category killers in Domainer terminology).
14:56:39 From Jonathan Zuck : don’t leave things to the board!
14:57:02 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : Agree with JZ
14:57:08 From avri doria : yeah, don't leave policy to the Board
14:57:58 From Holly Raiche : @ Avri - should we make an exception for Leon and you?
14:58:08 From Chokri ben romdhane : bonsoir Michele bonne reunion
14:59:20 From avri doria : can't speak for Leon or the Board, but don't leave Policy to me.
14:59:48 From Jonathan Zuck : Yeah, if we leave policy to Avri, we’ll get some weird policies…
15:00:23 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : The thing about closed generics and even open generics is that the public may ignore them in much the same way as they have ignored many of the new gTLDs.
15:00:41 From Jonathan Zuck : You shut your mouth, @John!
15:00:46 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : :)
15:01:01 From laurin : hehe
15:01:25 From Roberto : I spent 6 years on the ICANN Board approving policy and then, as punishment, I spent 6 years on the PIR Board to understand what mess we did do earlier
15:01:40 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : I've just errorchecked about 69K of ICANN's registrar transaction reports for the gTLDs. Someone wasn't doing a good job of error checking. :)
15:02:17 From Greg Shatan : Roberto, you are like Sisyphus, except with two stones!
15:03:13 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : Great string for memes.
15:03:23 From Jonathan Zuck : Yes!
15:04:14 From Joanna Kulesza ALAC : Now the public _cannot_ miss .disaster
15:04:21 From Joanna Kulesza ALAC : too good for memes
15:04:47 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : And by default there will be an ICANN.disaster. :)
15:05:52 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond : .HEART - funny, I would have thought it would be used by fans of the music group, or also dating sites
15:06:06 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond : these are bigger cash markets than people with pacemakers
15:06:37 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond : and often at the end of the day, bluntly, we've found out, it's all about the money
15:06:42 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond : (own views)
15:06:48 From Greg Shatan : .BRAND would not work if the operator is looking to serve the entire industry.
15:07:02 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : YEp. And many registries found out the hard way that the money is not there.
15:07:42 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond : indeed @John -- which makes us so much more baffled as to why more of these need to be created in another round?
15:08:05 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : My theory is that it propagates consultants.
15:08:18 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : It isn't about TLDs or domain names at all.
15:08:41 From Greg Shatan : @Olivier, at least 3 million people have pacemakers, and over 500,000 new and replacement pacemakers are implanted every year. Pretty good-size market....
15:08:52 From Jonathan Zuck : But I think cost should be a solvable problem. See CCT recs
15:08:53 From Roberto : @OCL my question is rather why should we worry - but I don’t want to start this discussion now
15:09:51 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : At the moment, the market is splitting over .COM and the ccTLDs. There's very little space between them.
15:10:55 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond : usually better than DISASTER is SOS
15:11:04 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond : SOS is internationally recognized
15:14:12 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : And the counterargument: .ICU
15:15:45 From Alan Greenberg : That is not a CLOSED generic. It is an open generic with rules for application.
15:16:34 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : .ICU or .BANK?
15:16:54 From Holly Raiche : Thanks JZ - from memory, the consumer expectation was that there is a relationship between the name and operators using that registry
15:17:23 From Jonathan Zuck : Yes, @Holly. Got caught on the terminology
15:17:50 From Lutz Donnerhacke : Example …. .versicherungsberater (sic! closed to Allianz insurance)
15:18:04 From Greg Shatan : SLDs could be assigned to vendors, customers, etc., even if they are not the “registrant”
15:18:12 From Jonathan Zuck : We just covered this @Holly
15:19:38 From Jonathan Zuck : we HATE “closed” generics then because they would lead to an increase in public confusion
15:20:10 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : Most .BRANDs are unused.
15:20:36 From Justine Chew : @greg, could you elaborate on a (or variation) of use case?
15:20:47 From laurin : people also don’t get the new gtlds — which I think got mentioned a million time on this call.
15:21:08 From Marita Moll : I agree @Alan. Without a good example, I can't think of a reason to support closed generics
15:21:27 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Excellent as ever Justine thanks!
15:21:31 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : More like registries underestimated the costs of and necessity of marketing.
15:21:50 From Jonathan Zuck : +1 John
15:21:56 From laurin : yes.
15:21:59 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : They were operating in a 2007 mindset of domain name shortages.
15:22:50 From laurin : the reasons for not getting new gtlds vary imho but that aspect is an obvious one.
15:23:42 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : and *not* be limited to our scope of future new gTLDs
15:23:44 From Holly Raiche : @JZ - is this just stalling - and haven’t we called for implementation of the CCT recommendations before another round?
15:23:52 From Greg Shatan : From an end-user point of view, I’m not sure there is a good argument for closed generics — without even getting to question of whether “public interest” is an appropriate test.
15:23:57 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Yes YOU have
15:24:11 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : as did GAC
15:24:22 From Jonathan Zuck : We have, yes. They’re a bit of a hot potato at the moment
15:24:33 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : but Justine has reflected the WG thinking on this
15:24:43 From Hadia Elminiawi : Thank you Justine
15:24:50 From Dave Kissoondoyal - Mauritius : Thanks Justine
15:26:10 From Holly Raiche : Thanks Justine
15:27:33 From Greg Shatan : “Crime” is too narrow.
15:27:36 From Joanna Kulesza ALAC : @Jonathan is this where we try and discuss the Wikipedia page?
15:28:05 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : One way to do it is to target technology journalists with press releases. They generally recycle them as news and it is an easy way to build the conpt of DNS abuse.
15:28:25 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : concept
15:28:26 From Holly Raiche : In OZ, our regulator, and our Office of eSecurity have done lots os material- the issue is about dissemination
15:29:29 From Hadia Elminiawi : I shall be covering the topic during the Middle East readout session while reporting about the ALAC activities during ICANN67
15:29:29 From Holly Raiche : There is more conversation on that issue
15:29:32 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : and other countries may also have offerings as well @Holly perhaps we need to curate a collection of the best of as well
15:30:02 From Holly Raiche : @ CLO - I will be presenting at the APAC webinar - summarizing all three presentations
15:30:17 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : yes
15:30:27 From Hadia Elminiawi : I shall be covering all three sessions during the ME readout session
15:31:02 From Hadia Elminiawi : @Holly I shall also try to summarize all three
15:32:04 From Heidi Ullrich : @All, we can add that topic. However, next week Cheryl is being asked to present on the PDP 3.0 topic.
15:32:40 From Jonathan Zuck : I’m sitting on 1,500 DNS Abuse lapel pins!
15:32:43 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : NO @ Heidi I said I would not do it then
15:32:51 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : Painful. :)
15:33:08 From Holly Raiche : @ JZ - may I have one of them please
15:33:26 From Heidi Ullrich : Thank you for clarifying, Cheryl.
15:33:27 From Glenn McKnight FBSC : correct
15:34:55 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : A lot of DNS Abuse could be stopped by limiting the power of registries to discount reg fees. But that would be crossing red lines for a lot of them.
15:35:54 From Hadia Elminiawi : +1 Jonathan
15:36:31 From Dave Kissoondoyal - Mauritius : Thanks Jonathan
15:37:43 From Justine Chew : Yep, B-Corp isn't the full-proof solution.
15:37:56 From Jonathan Zuck : For sure not @Justine
15:38:07 From Glenn McKnight FBSC : Olivier ignore my hand
15:38:13 From Glenn McKnight FBSC : go on
15:38:52 From Greg Shatan : COVID-19 is messing everything up. ICANN needs better virus protection.
15:38:53 From Jonathan Zuck : there are “standards” for b-corps that could be adopted as part of the contract as well
15:40:47 From Holly Raiche : Goodsuggestion JZ
15:41:36 From laurin : I will provide comments on SSR2 again but happy with it.
15:42:59 From Justine Chew : Re: the Name Collision Analysis Project (NCAP) Study 1 public comment, I am suggesting we simply acknowledge the Study 1 report has met 2 of its 3 goals as it purported to meet. And mention our anticipation of goal #3 which is a determination if the NCAP Project will proceed to a Study 2.
15:43:22 From Jonathan Zuck : Seemed like a good comment, @Justine
15:44:11 From laurin : comments well received Olivier!
15:44:13 From Glenn McKnight FBSC : ok olivier
15:44:39 From laurin : but yes, we want to make sure the larger issue is addressed and discussed.
15:44:49 From Glenn McKnight FBSC : your comments are welcome to the NexGEN feedback. I encourage everyone to review it. I will bring it up at the next O and E meeting
15:45:06 From Matthias M. Hudobnik : i will @glenn
15:45:08 From Evin Erdoğdu : At-Large GeoNames Survey: https://forms.gle/skiGiio5n4UXu9G57
15:45:30 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : Just on the Geos, there are some registries that have subbed incorrect reports and are overstating the domain name counts.
15:45:31 From Hadia Elminiawi : Thanks evin
15:45:49 From Glenn McKnight FBSC : Its important to have peoplelike Matthais and Laurin to comment given their first hand experience.
15:45:54 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics : It is a problem with the backends that has had 4 gTLDs with the same report.
15:46:33 From avri doria : bye, thanks. be well all.
15:46:43 From laurin : would support 2 hrs!
15:46:48 From claudia.ruiz : 25 March 202 @ 13:00 UTC
15:46:55 From laurin : better for planning.
15:47:06 From claudia.ruiz : 90 mins
15:47:07 From Glenn McKnight FBSC : We got pushed off the agenda twice now Laurin
15:47:11 From Michel TCHONANG : Good meeting, thank and bye all
15:47:13 From Dave Kissoondoyal - Mauritius : Thanks and bye to all..
15:47:20 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Bye for now then...
15:47:28 From laurin : bye all!
15:47:30 From Marita Moll : Thanks everyone. Stay well!!!
15:47:30 From Judith Hellerstein : I have been pushed off of 3 calls with the travel
15:47:30 From Evin Erdoğdu : Thank you all!
15:47:34 From Matthias M. Hudobnik : bye bye thx
15:47:35 From Evin Erdoğdu : Stay well
15:47:36 From Glenn McKnight FBSC : thanks bye
15:47:39 From Joanna Kulesza ALAC : thank you all, take good care
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