Sarah Falvey - RYSG:Hi All -
Sarah Falvey - RYSG:I am in an airport so I will be on mute for the meeting and using chat. Apologies
kristina rosette:greetings! I'm on mute, too. At the bus stop.
Kiran Malancharuvil:I just joined via Adobe. I won't be able to call in.
Kiran Malancharuvil:Thanks!
Philip Corwin:can you send the link to the doc, please?
rafik:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BOpCmeE4YL3cat_6oN5RaNvDgvEYO-HS82gRzc_aRjo/edit#
Philip Corwin:Thanks
Keith Drazek (RySG):Hi all, apologies for joining late.
Michele Neylon:where is she?
Keith Drazek (RySG):@Rafik, yes, that works for me. The RySG looks forward to reviewing the final draft as submitted and will provide any further comment as needed.
Michele Neylon:I'm apparently an anonymous dinosaur
Michele Neylon:why not just delete the number?
Michele Neylon:and move on
Michele Neylon:"involved people from"
Michele Neylon:without specifying how many
Keith Drazek (RySG):works for me, Michele
Alain Bidron:OK
Sarah Falvey - RYSG:makes sense
kristina rosette:fine with me
Keith Drazek (RySG):I support Marilyn's edit, thanks.
Greg Shatan:Agree
marilyn Cade - CSG:Michele, I am okay with your suggestion to cut the number. the revised language would then be ... involved people from each of these groups?
marilyn Cade - CSG:Marilyn /I proposed 'changes and enhancements'. I can see that we are getting out of sync with comments , so I will try to be specific about what I am commenting on in the Adobe.
Keith Drazek (RySG):+1 Marilyn
kristina rosette:If we're talking about the first sentence of 2.1, how about "The ICANN multi-stakeholder, bottom up consensus driven model best serves the ICANN community" (and use the same language to start the first sentence.)
Michele Neylon:Marilyn - yes - we had people from different groups - we can list who in an annex or whatever
kristina rosette:can't. on mute. at the bus stop
kristina rosette:very loud. lots of kids. sorry.
Keith Drazek (RySG):The key is to reinforce the importance of the Bottom Up Consensus Based Multi-Stakeholder Model as a principle for ICANN and any other organization tasked with IG functions.
Michele Neylon:Keith +1
marilyn Cade - CSG:I dpm
Keith Drazek (RySG):It's not a question of whether ICANN is committed to it or not, it's about the principle that the MSM must be bottom up and consensus based to be legitimate.
marilyn Cade - CSG:I don't mind suggesting that it also is important for IG mechanisms, but not all mechanisms are operational, and a range of mechanisms will be needed in Internet Governance. I am spending huge amounts of time in many other settings where IG is being developed, and ICANN is only one of the mechanisms.
kristina rosette:good point, greg.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:exactly. And I tiotally agree with Greg
Keith Drazek (RySG):+1 Greg
Leon Sanchez:Agree
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:if we restrict this to ICANN we're basically wasting our time on red herrings
Keith Drazek (RySG):Completely agree. Bottom Up Consensus Based MSM best serves the Internet and its users.
marilyn Cade - CSG:My comments are not about multi-lateral, though, but about various flavors of MS-ism. Could you repeat your proposed language?
kristina rosette:fine with me, Greg. Good idea. If we keep the beginning of my suggestion and then use "Internet" instead of "ICANN", we tie the two concepts together nicely.
Alain Bidron:agree with greg
marilyn Cade - CSG:I think Greg's formulation was gaining support..
Keith Drazek (RySG):+1 Kristina
kristina rosette:The ICANN multi-stakeholder bottom up consensus based model best serves the Internet. (with appropriate commas)
Keith Drazek (RySG):+1 Kristina
Michele Neylon:agreed
Michele Neylon:oh dear
Michele Neylon:agreeing with Kristina
HECTOR MANOFF:+1
Michele Neylon:don't tell anyone
Michele Neylon:/me ducks
kristina rosette:I left the commas out just to drive Michele crazy. :-)
Michele Neylon:lol
Michele Neylon:you know me too well
kristina rosette:I don't know if we have any ISP folks, but I know that they believe quite strongly that they are separte from business so suggest we replace (in the first sentence) "such as" with ","
Alain Bidron:ISPs are represented YES
marilyn Cade - CSG:I have a concern about a sentence in the second paragraph: Initiatives emerge in the [new language: communities of stakeholders], advised by ICANN's Advisory Committees, and supported by staff.
Marilia Maciel:Hello, all sorry for being late. Could someone enable my mic, please?
Alain Bidron:I agree that there is a difference between Business as registrar registry ISPS and Business using the internet
Petya Minkova:@ Marilia : ur microphone is enabled
Michele Neylon:shouldn't it be "from the" not "in the"
Sarah Falvey - RYSG:I agree with Marilyn's edit
kristina rosette:Advisory Committees advise the Board, not stakeholders.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:I agree with Marilyn's edit too
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:with an edit according to Kristina's point
kristina rosette:How about "Initiatives emerge in the communities of stakeholders and the ICANN Advisory Committees, and supported by staff." That covers my point and Marilyn's.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:YES!
kristina rosette:and are supported by staff.
Kiran Malancharuvil:I like Kristina's suggestion
kristina rosette:yes, that was the point I was trying to make
Leon Sanchez:sounds like a plane landing
marilyn Cade - CSG:Kristina gets the votes from me for typing at a bus stop!
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:excellent. Next!
Michele Neylon:What the hell si that noise?
Alain Bidron:Landed
Michele Neylon:at least it didn't crah
Michele Neylon:crash even
Leon Sanchez:LOL
Michele Neylon:that would have really been a buzz kill
marilyn Cade - CSG:Can staff scroll up so that we can see if Kristina/s edits are accepted?
Michele Neylon:Marilyn - they were AFAIK
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:On the Adobe it is impossible to see the changes
kristina rosette:um, I haven't been making any edits in the document. Is someone else holding the pen (er, keyboard)?
Leon Sanchez:it makes sense. I agree to the proposal
Marilia Maciel:Yes
Petya Minkova:@ Marilyn it is impossible to see any new updates on the doc.... not as a PDF file
Alain Bidron:If you refresh google doc you see the changes
kristina rosette:like it.
Marilia Maciel:I tried to draft the first point on the paragraph above
Marilia Maciel:Yes, I agree with Marilyn
kristina rosette:Concerned that saying "seeking to inlcude all stakeholders" implies that ICANN does not currently include all stakeholders, which isn't true and isn't what we mean.
Leon Sanchez:How about saying "ICANN has continuously improved its multi-stakeholder model"?
Alain Bidron:agree with Kristina
kristina rosette:+ 1 to Leon
Alain Bidron:Yes this +1 to Leon
marilyn Cade - CSG:I like Leon's suggestion.
Kiran Malancharuvil:I'm sorry, I have to drop off early. I'll review the document when I return from my next meeting. Thank you.
Alain Bidron:and will?
marilyn Cade - CSG:We are finalizing probably on this call, due to lack of time?
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:thx Kiran
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:@alain: these are plans, so should is probably better
Alain Bidron:Ok
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:So what do we do with the paragraph starting "Ideally ICANN Should Srtive?é
Marilia Maciel:Yes, that is why I striked the text, drafting the para above. I think point 1 is covered at least
Alexandra Dans:Just a quick comment on the RIRs: Arin also provides services in the Caribeean. In fact, both LACNIC and ARIN are serving different countries in that region.
Alain Bidron:True LACNIC is Part of the Caribbean
Alain Bidron:pr-ovide services in part of the caribbean
Marilia Maciel:Yes agreed
marilyn Cade - CSG:There are numerous multistakeholder mechanisms. We offer two examples below, noting that this is not an inclusive list.
Marilia Maciel:1
Alain Bidron:My view is that having other examples than ICANN is not bad
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:option 1: keep RIR & IGF text where they are and preamble them with Marilyn's text.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:Option 2: move the RIR & IGF texts to Appendix
Alain Bidron:option 1
Marilia Maciel:1
Sarah Falvey - RYSG:1
Leon Sanchez:1
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:thanks that's great
Aparna Sridhar:HI - I suggest deter rather than prevent
marilyn Cade - CSG:Strike the word: Admittedly. That isn't needed.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:+1
Sarah Falvey - RYSG:Apologies but I need to drop and board a plan
Sarah Falvey - RYSG:plane
marilyn Cade - CSG:swap order. Unique Internet.
Alain Bidron:I like unique internet
Marilia Maciel:Yes
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:Thanks for joining Sarah
Marilia Maciel:No need I think unique says
Marilia Maciel:already
marilyn Cade - CSG:a unique Internet.
Greg Shatan: a single Internet>
marilyn Cade - CSG:It isn't a single Internet, though. :-)
marilyn Cade - CSG:I think we should rely also on language that has stood the test of time and debate...
Aparna Sridhar:If intergovernmental discussions touch on aspects of Internet governance, then they should be conducted in full, inclusive, and transparent consultation with the affected nongovernmental stakeholders.
marilyn Cade - CSG:I do want to offer a slight modification though on this, as it seems to imply that it is never proper to have government to government discussions.
Greg Shatan:I agree with Marilyn's concern.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:I like Aparna's wording
kristina rosette:"then they should be supported by full, inclusive . . .. . or "then they should be conducted in coordination with full, inclusive. . . ... "
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:I like it!
Aparna Sridhar:supported by is fine
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:+1 to Kristina's amendment
marilyn Cade - CSG:I think it would then read: . ... , supported by full, inclusive and transparent consultations with affected non governmental stakeholders.
marilyn Cade - CSG:I support Mariela's comment: this is areally about how hard it is to participate, I think.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:hmm -- you have to be careful because discussions between alw enforcement agencies will not want to conduct transparent discussions for obvious reasons
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:and I cannot see businesses conducting transparent discussions when it involves a business deal
marilyn Cade - CSG:I think there are areas where transparency isn't appropriate, and I see two noted here...
Aparna Sridhar:Here is my proposal:
Aparna Sridhar:The Cross community Working Group supports Transparency in Internet Governance discussions All discussions on aspects of Internet governance should be supported by full, inclusive, and transparent consultation with all affected stakeholders.
Marilia Maciel:Yes, I agree, it was nor my point
Marilia Maciel:I like the proposal
Michele Neylon:I do see the link
Michele Neylon:I'm going to have to drop off shortly - I need to eat :)
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:I would suggest preambling the text with "except in circumstances where confidentiality is needed (law enforcement or business reasons).
Marilia Maciel:Yes
marilyn Cade - CSG:I think is much improved, Aparna, thanks. I can spport Olivier's add.
Marilia Maciel:I think it is not actually needed since we are talking about IG
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:in fact -- (for example, law enforcement or business reasons)
Aparna Sridhar:yeah but I don't think that trade secret discussions really impact Internet goverance
Marilia Maciel:But would not object
Aparna Sridhar:but if people are really concerned, it's fine
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:would governments ever do something transparent as far as national security is concerned?
kristina rosette:With apologies, I have to drop off the call. I'm happy to take a final run through the document for capitaliziation/grammar/etc. (I think Greg and I had volunteered to do that.) I have to be offline tomorrow, but have some time later this evening.
Leon Sanchez:I made a comment to the document. What do you think about that wording? Makes sense?
marilyn Cade - CSG:I don't think I mentioned national security
marilyn Cade - CSG:Leon, where do I see the statement?
Michele Neylon:Where's the current version of this ?
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:*everything in your life is national security* :-)
Michele Neylon:I'm getting confused
Greg Shatan:If I discuss Internet Governance at the bar in SIngapore, I will make sure that it is supported by full, inclusive and trasparent consultation with all affected stakeholders....
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:@Michele: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BOpCmeE4YL3cat_6oN5RaNvDgvEYO-HS82gRzc_aRjo/edit?usp=sharing
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:work in progress
Leon Sanchez:@Marilyn at the right side column in the document
Michele Neylon:Isn't one of the main reasons we're even here the fact that some governments decided that their "security" gave them permisiosn to spy on everyone else?
Aparna Sridhar:Agree with marilyn
Marilia Maciel:Ok
Michele Neylon:strike "aspect of"
Michele Neylon:it's superflous
Leon Sanchez:My proposal for the 2.5 header is to re word it so it states "The CCWGcalls for greater Transparency in intergovernmental discussions that relate to internet governance issues ?
marilyn Cade - CSG:To Michele, we are here for a variety of reasons, one of them being concerns about implications of acts called by some governments [not a single government, as we all are increasing learining], but shouldn't we have [as the CCWG ] been 'here' anyway, trying to give input and guidance to the CEO, Board, and staff about their actions, and activities, that need stakeholder support. :-)
Aparna Sridhar:I think we shouldn't try to interpret what Naresh was thinking
Greg Shatan:Agree with Aparna -- we are out of time.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:I agree with Marilyn.
Aparna Sridhar:Everyone, I have to drop. Thanks for the collaboration. I look forward to reading the next version.
marilyn Cade - CSG:Olivier/Rafik: could you send a note to Naresh, welcoming his submitting ideas along with others, into the CCWG session in Singapore?
rafik:@marylin yes I asked petya to take of this action to follow-up
marilyn Cade - CSG:THANKS, Rafik.
Marilia Maciel:ok
marilyn Cade - CSG:I don't like the idea that the Board is sheparding, as today, they are totally unconnected, unfortunatley, and apparently, so according to the bylaws.
marilyn Cade - CSG:ICANN's contuning evolution must be driven by ICANN's Stakeholders
marilyn Cade - CSG:Keep the next sentences under that bullet.
marilyn Cade - CSG:Keep a bullet that says: ICANN's Board should perform its functionss after ongoing consultation with ICANN Stakeholders, and with continuing improvements in transparency and accountability
marilyn Cade - CSG:Keep the bullet on evolution of participation. cut the Sheparerding bullets.
marilyn Cade - CSG:Keep the last bullet on transparency but change it to Transparency and Accountability, which should always be interlinked..:-)
Greg Shatan:Agree that Accountability is key.
marilyn Cade - CSG:then add Globalizatoin plans for ICANN must be developed with stakeholder support and taking impact on stakeholders into account.
Marilia Maciel:ok by me
Philip Corwin:works for me
marilyn Cade - CSG:If we were to make a statement about ICANN, I would be critical of the closing of the Board but tis is not the place for that statement. ::-)
Marilia Maciel:The brackets mean disagreement?
marilyn Cade - CSG:I think the facts are 1998, though. At least that was when we founded ICANN.
marilyn Cade - CSG:I actually don't think that any proposal has broad and diverse support, so I would make a few edits, but we need to actually be fact based. the AoC i snot a contract, for instance.
marilyn Cade - CSG:I strongly agree that there is no clearly defined roadmap to changes, and I think that if we clear up language just to be clear when is a contract, when is an agreement,
Michele Neylon:ICANN needs to respect local law
marilyn Cade - CSG:US oversight did end with AOC/Phil is right. IANA Functions agreement - there are multiple elements. I think that the based in California /and subject to California law, may be also a question that some are concerned about.
Michele Neylon:it's not globalised until it starts doing that
marilyn Cade - CSG:Michele is raising a concern about the issues of compliance with local law. and I understand the concern you raise, Michele.
Michele Neylon:Michele is very angry with ICANN at the moment
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:The Google Doc is not automatically updated on the Adobe COnnect. The Adobe is just a snapshot of the Google Doc. For updated text, please see the Google Doc directly.
Michele Neylon:+1
Leon Sanchez:yes. Challenges
Philip Corwin:+1
Michele Neylon:challenges / challenging
Michele Neylon:works better
Michele Neylon:less negative nuance
Alain Bidron:Good
marilyn Cade - CSG:Amazing work by the team. thanks to Rafik and Olivier for excellent stewardship /leadership to brign such diversity of views together. All of the groups have up to 4 reps able to participate, and I think we have also offered the opportunity for further improvements during the Singapore meeting.
marilyn Cade - CSG:I think w ealso to have to also send in that request still that our public session is not scheduled against the name collision session, or the main panels. How is that goign to happen?
Marilia Maciel:Could someone quickly clarify what will be the procedure to discuss this doc in Singapore?
Philip Corwin:Those Netmundial inaccuracies are a good argument against "crowdsourcing" of policy issues
Michele Neylon:Happy to share a "final" text with the RrSG - if Olivier / Rafik can post to list
marilyn Cade - CSG:Marilia: the group plannign the open session Monday was proposing that this be a major part of that session, but ICANN has presently scheudled Name collision against our scheduled public session. That was raised by the planning group as a problem but we havne't resolved it yet.
Alain Bidron:I think we have to challenge the fact that the session will be in parallel with the Names collision topic
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:@Marilia: this is what we will discuss & decide next week!
Marilia Maciel:Thanks, Marilyn
Marilia Maciel:Great
Philip Corwin:We don't want to collide with name collisions
Marilia Maciel:hahaha... yes too much collision
Alain Bidron:Name collision and CCWG are two major topics
marilyn Cade - CSG:I support Alain's comment, it is also important to the Business folks, and to others, and was amazing to me to see that 'collision'. :-)
Alain Bidron:have a good WE
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:Thanks everybody this was a very good and productive session!
Alain Bidron:Thank you all
Philip Corwin:Ciao
Michele Neylon:bye
Leon Sanchez:thanks everybody
Martin J. Levy @ Hurricane Electric:Hasta!
Marilia Maciel:Thanks, bye!
